For the LEO guys here -> brandishing a firearm

I guess most people know of the Florida Castle Doctrine law that pretty much protects a person from being at the mercy of the bad guys, but I'm kind of unclear on a detail about self defense.

What exactly is "brandishing" a firearm? Where is the dividing line between "brandishing" and drawing your weapon in preparation if potential self defense use?

Along the same lines, is "open carry" permitted in the state of Florida?

Good question. Rich, at my farm in NC I had a nut for a neighbor come on the property to tell a crew from Morton Building's to cease work on the barn because it was "the Lords day". Of course he was drunk or he probably wouldn't have done this, but when I told him to get off the property he drew a 45 Colt semi, pointed it to the sky and cocked it as he left the property. I drove downtown immediately to speak to the law. When I told them that he had not pointed the gun at me, they said sorry, they couldn't do a thing. I was absolutely floored.
Next time I won't be so honest about where the gun was pointed when I feel I have been threatened on my property

exile said:

Good question. Rich, at my farm in NC I had a nut for a neighbor come on the property to tell a crew from Morton Building's to cease work on the barn because it was "the Lords day". Of course he was drunk or he probably wouldn't have done this, but when I told him to get off the property he drew a 45 Colt semi, pointed it to the sky and cocked it as he left the property. I drove downtown immediately to speak to the law. When I told them that he had not pointed the gun at me, they said sorry, they couldn't do a thing. I was absolutely floored.
Next time I won't be so honest about where the gun was pointed when I feel I have been threatened on my property

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In your shoes, that guy had better not come onto my property again. I would have considered his action with that gun a threat, and if had the opportunity, would have dropped him thinking I was in mortal danger. There were just two alcohol soaked brain cells between him turning around and walking away, or pointing the gun at you and pulling the trigger.

In my opinion, that guy was "brandishing" a firearm as a threat and the LEOs should have interpreted it that way. He had no other reason to pull out that gun in your presence. He was on YOUR property confronting YOU in a threatening manner. And I believe in Florida, you could have legally shot him as a justifiably perceived threat. Not very neighborly, I know, but neither is pulling a gun on you.

Were you in fear (think about your answer-of course you were) then you were the victim of an aggravated assault with a firearm (a felony). Report it to the local law enforcement agency and use those terms. "I was in fear", he could have (he had the means) to "kill" me. If necessary push the issue with local LEO.

Oh and , of course he pointed the weapon (roughly) in your direction.

Just my opinion

Ken

Kap142 said:

Were you in fear (think about your answer-of course you were) then you were the victim of an aggravated assault with a firearm (a felony). Report it to the local law enforcement agency and use those terms. "I was in fear", he could have (he had the means) to "kill" me. If necessary push the issue with local LEO.

Just my openion

Ken

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A drunk guy with a gun in his hand walking onto your property to tell you he didn't like what you were doing there? Yeah, who WOULDN'T be in fear of the potential in that kind of circumstance?

Maybe this will help you make it clearer in your mind:

bran·dish(brndsh)
tr.v. bran·dished, bran·dish·ing, bran·dish·es
1. To wave or flourish (a weapon, for example) menacingly.
2. To display ostentatiously. See Synonyms at flourish.
n.
A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.
[Middle English brandissen, from Old French brandir, brandiss-, from brand, sword, of Germanic origin; see gwher- in Indo-European roots.]

brandish·er n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words AntonymsNoun 1. brandish - the act of waving
flourish
wafture, waving, wave - the act of signaling by a movement of the hand
Verb 1. brandish - move or swing back and forth; "She waved her gun"
wave, flourish
2. brandish - exhibit aggressively; "brandish a sword"

Essentially as a LEO I'm going to be looking at the circumstances surrounding the display of the weapon, the intended purpose of the user, and of course, the environment. Was the weapon displayed in a careless or wreckless manner for no apparent reason other than the display? Or, maybe to "appear aggressive (read that a badass) to others in the area. The first thing that comes to mind is the local drunk redneck out waving his firearm about in a crowd of people. No apparent reason other than to show the people that he has one and no apparent threat by anyone in the crowd toward him or anyone he would be defending.

Does that help?

Gordon

Gordon, yes it does. At least with the intentions of how to enforce that law. But do you know how the law actually READS? In other words, the letter of the law? I'm curious to know how much is left up to the interpretation or discretion of the officer.

No, I don't have something in the future in mind, just been curious about this for a while.... Since I have had a CCW permit since right after I moved down here, and that Castle Doctrine law kind of helped to take the legal jeopardy away somewhat that a bad guy could turn the tables on you with, I just like to KNOW the laws as best I am able to.

Thanks.

RIch,

Here's a link to the Florida Statute 790. Pay particular attention to sections
790.10 & 790.053 as they pertain to open carry of a firearm and reckless display of a firearm respectively.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=Ch0790/titl0790.htm

Gordon,
Does Florida have the law "Make my day law". In Oklahoma they passed a law that if you are on your property and someone pulls out a gun or weapon and you feel your life is in danger you have the right to act on it. Any means possible to defend yourself.

Gordon
Just read the law links you posted. That is basically straight forward. What if you are a bouncer in a bar and to break up a fight you use a stun gun is that legal?

WOW...

If a neighbor (drunk or not) came onto my property and pulled out a weapon, I'd be in fear for my life:hide: ! How the F:2232censored: (in this day in age)am I supposed to know if he's going to use it or not. Obviously, the end result was he just walked away, but the threat of immanent fear is/was there. I'd think Tresspassing would at least be in order!?

:thinkin: Same situation...but what if exile had a gun of his own (on his person), seen this fella Pull His Out, then shot him because he was in immanent fear of his life, how would that play out?
IMO...I'd rather be tried by 12 than burried by 6:yesnod: .
Seems to me, a jury would see self defense as the guy had NO business being on exile's property with a firearm to begin with. Let alone pulling it out during an obviously heated situation.
JMHO,

~Ray

Where's the Justice!

I have a friend who got a call from his (at the time) 15 year old daughter, to come and get her because she was scared. She was out with some friends at a local hangout in Wildwood, when a large # of older teen guys showed up causing lots of problems.
Dad gets there, parks far enough away and beckons his daughter to come with him. hey wouldn't allow her to.
Instead the group of guys turn on him, coming at him saying they're going to beat him, F... him up kill him. Dad reaches back into his truck, opens the glove box pulling out his holstered pistol and places it on the hood of the truck to be seen stating..."no one's killing me tonight":NoNo: .
By now the cops have been called and are arriving.
Result...Dad goes to jail for "Brandishing" his weapon and most of the teens all hauled A$$.
FYI...the teens that were caught were drunk and on various drugs, but released to their parents.:nonod:
After a night in jail, and the threat of losing his business over the drawn out ordeal, the charges were eventually dropped.
Where's the Justice?

~Ray

Ray,

To attempt to answer your questions, 1st there is no justice...Just -Us!

FWIW, obviously dropping the charges at least implies that the charging officers lacked probable cause (at the very least) and probably outright made a false arrest.

Personally, I'm not much for apologies when sstupidity is involved.

Under the circumstances you mentioned, I'd have my attroney filing criminal and civil charges against those involved and thier agency before the ink was dry on the release form But thats me. The older I get, the less bullshit I'm inclined to take. If you're going to do this job, do it right, do it professionally or don't do it at all!!!

Depending on when this occurred, he was fully justified (IMO) in his actions.

A few short years ago (1-2 I believe) you still had to attempt to flea from an attack(ers). You couldn't stand your ground

Thats been changed in Florida (which I think somewhat answers your question Sandman). You can "brandish" (not recklessly) your weapon lawfully in defense of your life or anothers.:thumbsup:

Again, I don't knwo when this event took place and things have changed. Either way, it sounds like the charging agents failed to do thier homework and did what a lot of officers do. They rush into a charge for expediencies sake and botch up the case down the road. The Aisenburg case is a prime example. They are the couple in Brandon with the missing infant. Piss poor police/detective work at it's finest.

Before it's over, the department and possibly the individual officers will pay dearly for thier errors. Unfortunately, they were likely right on track but you have to take your time!!!!

Again, as far as the neighbor (or anyone else for that matter) coming onto your property and waiving a firearm about, it's simply a matter of being able to articulate that you were in a justifiable fear for your safety or someone elses. In the case above, his daughter was being held against her will (false imprisonment-Felony) and he was threatened by a group larger than one person could be expected to handle.

Sandman, as stated above, you no longer have to flee from an attack in Florida. Just make sure you can articulate your fears to law enforcement when they arrive.

A BIG part of what happens after the shooting is determined by what happens before. Words, actions, witness perception mean a lot. Leave the bravado/machismo at home. Stay humble, somewhat remoresful (*I didn't want to have to do that-he forced me to) and for God's sake....quiet!!!

More people convict themselves than could possibly be convicted by law enforcement:rofl1:

G

That's good advice. It's best to just button your lips together when you are all charged up with adrenalin. Even if you know positively without a doubt you are innocent, it would be best to say nothing at all until you have settled down. Perhaps even talked to an attorney first.

Actually that new law here in Florida is a real boon to short, old, out of shape guys like me. Anyone getting in my face is probably going to be bigger, younger, and more in shape than me. Even my running away from him might trigger a heart attack, so I've really got no choice but to shoot the antagonist to protect myself if the hostile attitude appears likely to erupt into physical violence. Besides, I did study martial arts in my younger days and learned that there are several places on your body where a single well placed blow, even accidentally, can SERIOUSLY mess you up. I really don't want to take the chance of being on the receiving end..... And few people really understand how dangerous someone with a blade can be before you can even react.

:wavey:

Rich Z.. Even my running away from him might trigger a heart attack said:

:lmao:
You're right though...Running away may leave a person (especially and out of shape person) in even more dire straights, than if they had stood their ground. They'd be so tired or worse, they wouldn't be able to try to defend themselves.

Shadow, thanks for the reply...This took place a little over one year ago at around 11pm. I agree with what you said and the rest Makes sense! Good advise:thumbsup:.

~Ray

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For the best answers to these questions for laymen, I strongly recommend the book "Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership", by Jon Gutmacher. He is a Florida attorney who specializes in firearms law and is THE acknowledged expert on same. Great book. Anyone who carries in Florida should read it cover-to-cover imo. Pulling or using a gun can be extremely expensive, even given Florida's laws. Know the law, don't guess.

Gannet said:

For the best answers to these questions for laymen, I strongly recommend the book "Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership", by Jon Gutmacher. He is a Florida attorney who specializes in firearms law and is THE acknowledged expert on same. Great book. Anyone who carries in Florida should read it cover-to-cover imo. Pulling or using a gun can be extremely expensive, even given Florida's laws. Know the law, don't guess.

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:wavey: Thanks Gannet, Very good advise!:thumbsup:

Instead, If you really want to know what the courts think, I'd recommed a little time browsing the Florida Supreme Court decision on various cases firearms related.

For the most part very boring reading, but you'll then know for sure what the courts are likely to do.

It's not brain surgery either. Just pretty plain reading *(Ignore the cites).

Gannet said:

For the best answers to these questions for laymen, I strongly recommend the book "Florida Firearms, Law, Use & Ownership", by Jon Gutmacher. He is a Florida attorney who specializes in firearms law and is THE acknowledged expert on same. Great book. Anyone who carries in Florida should read it cover-to-cover imo. Pulling or using a gun can be extremely expensive, even given Florida's laws. Know the law, don't guess.

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Has that book been updated since the Castle Doctrine Law has passed?

Rich Z said:

Has that book been updated since the Castle Doctrine Law has passed?

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Yes. Get the latest edition. He also updates his website if there are changes in the law, or relevant court decisions.