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Unread 06-15-2016, 03:53 PM   #2241
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The more I think about it, the less thrilled I am about just getting the same sort of starter sent to me and putting what might be just another piece of crap on my car. I'm going to see if I can get a refund instead from Rock Auto. If that fails, then I may just go ahead and get a *new* aftermarket starter (perhaps MSD if it looks like it will fit OK) and just sell the replacement ACDELCO starter for whatever I can get for it.

So we'll see how things look when I pull that starter out. I tried the test with having the headlights on when I tried the starter, and since the headlights don't dim, the battery seems OK. Can't see any reason why the engine would have locked up just by stalling it trying to create the drive train noise, but who the heck knows? Maybe Murphy pissed into one of my engine cylinders? So maybe I'll see if I can turn the engine just to make sure before pulling the starter. If the engine is locked up, then no sense pulling the starter off. It's bonfire time!
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Unread 06-16-2016, 03:29 PM   #2242
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Sigh...

Well, here I went and stuck my foot in my mouth again.

I've got the passenger side header off, and was about to start removing the starter. That's when I noticed that the nut holding the hot wire from the battery to the solenoid was only barely finger tight. Damn.... I had read a bunch of warnings about not over tightening those nuts, and I guess I just went too easy on the wrench fearing I would snap the solenoid studs. I guess the nut was just tight enough to carry enough current to click the solenoid, but nothing else. I actually had Connie look down at those terminals while I tried to start it to look for a spark that would indicate a loose connection, but she didn't see anything. Maybe it wasn't quite THAT loose, just loose enough to be a pain in the butt. Sheesh....

And of course I have a new MSD starter on the way from Summit Racing as I write this.

Ah well, I think I would have had to do everything I did today anyway to get to those nuts to tighten down. I might have been able to get a wrench down there without removing anything, but it would have been pretty close to magic to do it. Replacing a starter and just tightening the nuts on the solenoid studs requires just about as much work on my car. THIS time around I am going to use the torque specs I just found!

Live and learn I guess. Poor Connie has been scared to death that she broke my engine.

Oh well, it looks like I still had an exhaust leak anyway, so just as well I pulled the exhaust down. Not that I wouldn't have rathered be doing something else today.
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Unread 06-16-2016, 06:42 PM   #2243
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Some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug.....
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Unread 06-16-2016, 08:02 PM   #2244
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Yeah, but I'm getting tired of being the bug....

I think I'm going to go ahead and pull this starter and put the MSD in when I get it. It's supposed to be able to turn the engine over quicker, and honestly I noticed this reman sounds like it is straining. Battery is at full charge since I charged it up the other day.

Besides, it's going to be VERY cool having a bright red starter down there where no one can see it.
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Unread 06-18-2016, 06:26 PM   #2245
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Got the new MSD stater installed.







I found out that this starter is slightly wider than the stock starter, so the passenger side header will no longer just slip in and out. I had to remove the mounting bolts to get the header back in.

I tested the starter before putting the header back in, and I think I like the sound of the MSD better than the stock starter. I torqued the nuts on the solenoid studs down to the specs I found. 11 ft/lbs for the large nut holding the hot wire from the battery, and 37 inch/lbs for the small terminal from the ignition switch. The install instructions from MSD didn't say anything about torque specs for the electrical stuff, but the mounting bolts they listed as 32 ft/lbs to torque them down. I also put nord-lock washers on them to keep them from coming loose anytime soon.

Found out that the exhaust flanges connecting the pipes to the catback pipe going over the axles were warped a bit, causing the gaskets to not seal properly. I took a file to them and looks like I've got them pretty much with a flush and flat surface. Hopefully I will only have to use one gasket instead of the three I have been having to use. Just have to make sure that the flanges going onto the back of the headers are covering the slots in the pipes completely to seal up all the exhaust leaks. Seems that every time I have to take off the exhaust it's a bitch getting the exhaust leaks eradicated.

Hopefully I'll have it all back together tomorrow. Then I can get back to trying to figure out where exactly that drive train noise is coming from.
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Unread 06-20-2016, 12:57 AM   #2246
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Well, today didn't go as well as I had hoped.

Yeah, I got the car all back together again, but when I was checking for anything laying against the passenger side header, yep I found something. The new MSD starter was laying against one of the primary tubes.



Now being close is one thing, but I seriously doubt it would bode well for longevity of that starter with a header tube laying right up against it. The heat from the header would be directly transferred to that starter body. Not to mention that the header tube was pushing against the unsupported end of the starter, so how much stress is being applied to the bolts holding the starter to the block? That can't be good.

Being a firm believer in Murphy's Law, I started sweating it. The entire reason I was doing all this starter crap was because of the slight chance of the stock starter breaking the thin mounting flange, and then the thicker flange taking out the part of the block it attached to. So I went through a Powermaster starter that the wiring would not attach to. Then the nut on the positive battery cable running to the starter solenoid loosened up. Now the MSD starter just won't fit without it's own issues. Was this going to be the third strike if I did a "let's see if it works ok"? Wouldn't that have been a pisser if THAT broke the starter mounting area on the block? Murphy works like that.

I did notice that when I was putting everything together that I could not slide that LG Motorsports Pro long tube header into place like I could with the stock starter. I had to actually remove the starter mounting bolts to get the header back in again, unlike with the stock starter. I didn't feel that was any big deal. Not until I discovered that the MSD starter had to be considerably thicker across in order to have the header tube actually touching it. So that also explained why the header wouldn't slide in place like it should have.

So I had everything finished, but..... Walking back from the garage after getting this done, I just did not feel GOOD about the job. I dunno, sort of had a feeling of impending doom or something. So after dwelling on it and realizing I was going to be fretting over this all night long, I went back over to the garage and took the exhaust off and got everything off the passenger side of the engine that was in the way of loosening up the header. And that's what I did. Just loosened it up to take any stress that it might be putting on the end of the starter. I'll deal with the rest of it tomorrow when I put that reman ACDELCO starter back in and call it a day. Had my fill trying to put an aftermarket starter on the car. I know when something is trying to tell me something.

Interestingly enough, I'm getting pretty quick at this changing out starters stuff lately. I had the exhaust off, plugs, coils, and wiring off, and the bolts loosened on the header in about a half hour. It's a lot easier and faster when you know what size all the bolts are when you are doing something like this.

Hope I didn't bung up the MSD starter too bad putting it in so Summit Racing will take it back. They are normally pretty good about returns, but I know I at least damaged the label on the side showing the model number trying to shoehorn that header in before realizing it just was NOT going to go in without getting the starter out of the way first. So we'll see how that goes. Sure would have having a $300 doorstop if I have to eat it.

BTW, I checked online and couldn't find a thing about any sort of incompatibility with this MSD starter and any brand of headers. So I guess it was just my lucky day....
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Unread 06-23-2016, 12:58 AM   #2247
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Well, I contacted Summit Racing, explained the situation, including that I had bunged up the MSD starter somewhat, and they told me I could return it anyway. Them's is good people to deal with...

So I got the ACDELCO starter back in. I sure have gotten a whole lot of experience replacing starters in a very short time.







Got it wrapped up with a heat shield all nice and purty. I checked the clearance between this starter and the primary header tube and there is a good 3/4s of an inch clearance there. So that MSD starter is quite a bit larger in diameter than the stock starter is.







I can't believe that I haven't read ANYTHING about anyone else having clearance problems between the MSD starter and headers. Even with brands other than LG Motorsports, I can't imagine that there is going to be that much difference in clearance issues around the starter. There really just isn't a whole lot of room to play with there. And looking at this from another angle, I can't believe that MSD wouldn't have designed the starter with headers taken into consideration. What's the chances that someone would put in an aftermarket starter and NOT also have headers in their car?

The passenger side header went in very easily with the ACDELCO starter in place, so that is in and all bolted up now. Connie helped me by holding up the tail end of the header while I got the bolts starter. I think she likes being on the creeper underneath the car. She says it feels cozy there. I had the car on the lift just high enough for her to get under the car, which stands underneath the lift arms for safety. Then I had to put a step stool next to the engine compartment so I could reach in and get to the header bolts. Awkward, but doable.

Anyway, got the ignition stuff back in too, and all the wiring dressed up neatly and protected from the heat from the headers. Did a test crank of the starter, and even with the fuel pumps disabled the engine still tried to start on me, as some cylinders were firing off. So the car appears to be tired of being on the lift.

So I just have to put the exhaust pipes between the headers and cat back pipes back in and check for exhaust leaks and I'll be back where I started trying to zero in where that intermittent drive train noise is coming from.
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Unread 07-05-2016, 06:01 PM   #2248
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Well, I had to put two gaskets on each of those exhaust flanges, one of which is an extra thick stainless steel gasket, and I found that I still have a slight leak. So it will apparently take three (3) gaskets to get them to seal up right. That's even after filing down the flanges on the LGM rear pipes trying to get them flush and straight. I checked with a straight edge and those flanges are definitely warped, which is why I have been having a devil of a time getting them sealed up properly. No idea how that happened, but with everything else this car has been through, I don't know why I would think this would surprise me. Heck, I don't think even over tightening those flange bolts would produce the type of warping I am seeing. It's not just the flanges at the bolt holes being bent out, it's like the flanges themselves got twisted somehow. I tried taking pics to show that I mean, but it just doesn't show what I can see by eyeball.

Anyway, I ordered new rear pipes from LG Motorsports and they showed up today. Got the old ones off, but decided to order new exhaust clamps, since I don't know how many times the two chop shops might have tightened and over tightened them. Plus I noticed that the gaskets I have (2.5" hole, 2 bolt, 4 inches between bolt hole centers) have a raised lip around the exhaust pipe hole, and if that gasket is even slightly off center, that lip just will not seal properly between the flanges. So I decided to order new gaskets with 2.75" holes so that alignment won't be so critical.

So the car is on ice till those clamps and gaskets come in. Not that the C5Z isn't used to living on the lift or anything....

I posted another thread (http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forum...d.php?t=106200) showing the video I took trying to either solidify the theory that it is the clutch making the drivetrain noise, or else provide evidence that it is from something else. Certainly seems to be originating from the clutch as best I can tell. I think that the Centerforce clutch is just real noisy, probably from those weights on the fingers of the clutch that are used to press the pressure plate harder against the disk because of the action of centrifugal force acting upon them. At slow speeds, they probably are just rattling around and chattering, which might be what the noise is coming from when I release the clutch pedal.

If it's just an irritation and aggravation, I might just live with it for as long as I can instead of jumping right in with a clutch replacement. I figure I've got about 6,000 miles on this clutch, so I might as well use it as long as I can.
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Unread 04-27-2018, 04:40 PM   #2249
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Well, I guess I should update this situation with the drive train noise. It's gotten progressively worse, and is not nearly as intermittent as it used to be. And in addition to sounding off when I start off from a dead stop, it is not beginning to express itself when I am shifting gears. I am feeling a very pronounced sort of vibration when I put the shifter into gear. Honestly, if it turns out to be a transmission problem instead of a clutch problem, I won't be real surprised.

I really don't even want to drive the car any longer, as the noise is not only just really irritating, but when I take it to the local car show, it's downright embarrassing. Connie has commented that it embarrasses her too, so it's time to either get this fixed, or sell it. Would hate to sell it after all I've been through with it, and it runs extremely strong otherwise, but if I don't want to drive it, then what is the sense of keeping it? So it is just time to do something about it.

Anyway, call me a weenie for not wanting to do this myself, but I've asked Greg at AntiVenom if he could take a look and tackle this problem for me. He said that he would, but he's not sure when as he already has 6 prior jobs he has to get out of the way first. Yeah, I know, I bought transmission jacks and have a lift and all that, but it would be just Connie and myself doing the job, and I am just VERY reluctant for us to be handling that much weight when the drivetrain comes out of the car. I sure as heck don't want one of us to get injured in the process, because at our age, it could be a serious injury that could affect us perhaps permanently and put a real damper on our remaining retirement years. Just doesn't make sense at this stage in our lives to take this sort of risk. I'm sure it will be more money than I would like to put into this car again, and it is coming out of my social security checks now, but I guess it just is what it is. The smart thing would be to just sell it, but obviously I haven't made a lot of smart decisions when it came to that car.

Honestly, I'm still not exactly sure where Greg's new shop is located, however. I've got his new address, and tried to locate it on Google Maps, but darn if I can see any indication of it on a road map, satellite image, or ground view. He says it is behind Stingray's Bar and Grille, so at least I have a landmark to look for. Hopefully there is a sign on the building or nearby somewhere.

I'm trying to get a rough idea from Greg as to when he thinks I'll be able to bring the car down to him, but so far haven't gotten any reply to my emails asking that of him.

So hopefully Greg can help me out and get this fixed. Speaking of which, I'm hoping I can drive it down to his place without any disabling drivetrain failure. It's about a 250 mile hike, so I know I'm going to be on pins and needles the entire drive.
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Unread 04-27-2018, 05:00 PM   #2250
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Well that's disturbing.
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