Why are we doing this?
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Originally Posted by Rich Z
Seriously, bud, WHO is it that writes their paychecks and gives them raises?  And do you think they didn't incur favors to get that job in the first place?  Get real, please. The "job for life" didn't make them untouchable if they screw their handlers. |
Well, as a matter of fact, yes:
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Only one Supreme Court Justice, Samuel Chase (one of the signatories to the Declaration of Independence), has ever been impeached. The House of Representatives accused Chase of letting his Federalist political leanings affect his rulings, and served him with eight articles of impeachment in late 1804. The Senate acquitted him of all charges in 1805, establishing the right of the judiciary to independent opinion. Chase continued on the Court until his death in June 1811.
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http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_US_S...ed_from_office
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A search is a search, black and white. The Constitution and Bill of Rights does not give law enforcement exceptions to violate what it states. Matter of fact those documents were written SPECIFICALLY to try to protect the people from exactly these kinds of abuses. Not to say that I don't understand that the SCOTUS and the government in general have pretty nearly gutted the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, but I'm STILL calling a "spade" a "spade" when I see it.
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Semantically/theoretically, you're correct.
Realistically, in application, you're way off.
Sorry.
As for the consitution, although I support and believe in the constitution, and wish we were more in tuned to it as a nation, if it were not for such things as amendments, SCOTUS opinions, ruling and precedents, we'd still be living in the woods in a lot of aspects of our lives.
Some would be better, others not so.
Things change, life changes.
It's the way it is.
Need I say more?
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Dance around it all you want, but a pat down IS a search. What in the world else COULD it be except for a SEARCH for weapons? Just a casual friendly roadside groping by a VERY friendly LEO? OOh, whats that there in your pants, big guy? If it's not a hands on caressing in the way of greeting, then what the heck is someone doing running their hands up and down another's body?
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Athough there's no need for
, once again, you've missed the point.
Semantically, you're right. I've already said that.
It's the legal application that differs wildly between a frisk and a search.
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Yeah, I can certainly understand why a LEO would want to have this power and appreciate their position concerning their safety (but NOT to the extent that it gives them carte blanche to override all other considerations),
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however this sort of thing is just another brick in the paving of that good intentioned road to hell you are pointedly turning a blind eye to.
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WTF are you talking about?
Terry has been around sine 1968, and it's no broader now than it was then
So how has that "paved the road to hell?
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I am sorry that your involvement in that career field has evidently affected your ability to see this objectively.
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As you know, that's not the only thing I've done in life.
I've worked both sides of the fence.
I've seen the abuse of power by law enforcement both from an on scene perspective as well as through the courts.
I've been the recipient of some less than stellar, heavy handed "police work" and some outright sloppy and lazy public servants!
I've seen judges that didn't have the sack or the sense, to make a ruling or decision that needed to be made.
I've seen the back room deals between defense attorneys, the prosecution and the judges.
And I've seen first hand, the unscrupulous abuse of judicial rhetoric and procedure, used by some defense counsel (in criminal cases), to set thier client free
You know my position on police work (it's been spewed out here on many occasions).
Do it right or don't F'in do it at all.
Go find something else to do.
Don't play with the sysytem, Period!
And you also know my position on government.
It's out of control, abusive and needs to be reigned in.
I told you almost verbatim, what the state (DOAC) was going to do, and they did it
It's because I've dealt with these idiots.
They want $$$ nothing more and don't really want to be bothered with anything that's not likely to bring them "Glory" or publicity.
Finally, I'm no cherry!
What you see above my bald ass head, is not a f**king HALO, it's a GLARE!
So to suggest that I'm jaded, one sided, narrow minded, blind eyed, or somehow have the "inability to see this objectively" is somewhat insulting
Maybe it's your recent interactions with the state and law enforcement, that have somewhat jaded your opinion?
I'm no f**king Dr. Phil, but adding to that, your previously stated opinions an stated feelings about the constitution, and constitutionlism in general, and I think I understand your feelings and emotions on the matter.
In many cases, I agree
Again, the fact is, the ruling has been around 43 years with no real revisions other than to make it's usage more strict on the officers.
You refer to the Terry rule as "POWER."
It's not power, it's authority.
In my younger, less informed days, I held the same opions you do, that it's just a way around the constitution.
The more I read and learned, the more I understood.
I saw the abuses of the Terry Frisk and thier ramifications on the officers, thier cases, and the opinion itself, making it's use tighter.
What it does, is gives the officer the lawful
ability or authority, to protect oneself from harm while trying to do the job he/she was hired by the taxpayers to do.
It protects the citizen against violations of thier rights against unreasonable searcha nd siezure, while giving the officer the ability to do a cursury search (there's that word again) to find weapons that may harm him.
It also protects the officer from unreasonable and unscrupulous allegations of abuse and civil rights violations, which may previously been made prior to Terry.
It's progress without oppression.
If you've read anything I've posted or linked, you'd realize that there's nothing about a Terry Frisk, that is Carte Blanche, or overrinding.
It's relatively narrow and confined.
It's a tool to be used lawfully, or lose the opportunity to use it at all.
The Law Enforcement community has over the years, lost several "tools" both physical and administrative, simply because some overzealous officer or agency, chose to use them outside the scope of thier intent or advertised purpose (remember the taser flashlight?)
These things really are watched pretty closely by many including the legal community and the several civil rights groups.
As an aside, I too am pretty strict where it concerns the protection and maintenance of our constitutional rights!
I've said that numerous times right here.
FWIW, I taught this subject to boarding teams during my stints with the Coast Guard.
In the testing phase, they had to articulate the difference between a search and a frisk, how, if and what evidence could be used as a result of each, and in the end, demonstrate both.
If they missed something on a search, we'd go back over and over it until they figured out what they were doing incorrectly.
Miss a weapon during a search and it can cost someone thier life!
I've missed a couple in 30 years and was lucky....very lucky!
I learned from those mistakes and went on to teach others.
F**k up and go outside the parameters while demonstrating the Terry Frisk, and
you failed the course and had to reattend the entire course at a later date.
(meanwhile, you're assigned to shore duty, just what every mariner longs for
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Why?
Becasue it's that serious, that's why!
This is supposed to be a fun place. A place where we can aire our opinions and differences, chat and even argue, among friends, without the need for insults.
So, for the time being, I think I need to do what I suggest to you. I need some beach time.
I think I'm going to take my narrow minded ass the f**k out of here for a while. I've already said too much anyway and I like what I do as a moderator, and I don't like watching friends go after friends
F**k it!
I'm going to finish my business work and start planning a Keys or Panhandle trip! (most likely the Keys)
Gordon
back John
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