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Firearms and Other Weapons Had a request for this forum, so here it is. Guess it will give me some place to talk about guns myself after selling my ArmsLocker forum.

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Unread 11-29-2010, 10:45 AM   #1
Rich Z
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Default Right to self defense?

Been reading in another thread concerning the restrictions in place whereby persons having a CCW cannot carry their weapons into certain areas restricted by law. So if the premise is that your CCW is for your personal self defense, then is self defense really a RIGHT, or is it merely a privilege granted by government?
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Unread 11-29-2010, 11:58 AM   #2
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It'd be simpler to kick a hornets next and hope not to get stung, than to try to get a straight answer to that question.

First you're going to have to determine which set of "rights" you're talking about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights

I've never read anywhere, where the government has the "right" to limit your "right" to self defense.
We all have a "right" to attempt to survive, protect ourselves, our loved ones, and to a lesser degree, our property. You know, the whole, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness thing...

That said, we don't have a "right" to do it with a firearm.

The constitution (depending on which justice is proffering thier opinion today) does grant us the "right" however (by government) to "keep and bear arms.
But it doesn't say squat about concealing them.

Several states antiquated and prohibitive gun laws have been overturned in recent years as a result of these constitutional arguement.

So based on that very limited dissertation, I'd have to say yes, you have a "right" to protect yourself, and if you meet the criteria, you have a "right" to keep and bear arms.

But the State has the right to control "how" you bear them to a degree.

Just my $.02
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Unread 11-29-2010, 08:07 PM   #3
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As always Gordon, good answer....
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Unread 11-29-2010, 08:13 PM   #4
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My motto: Shoot first then ask all the questions you want...
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Unread 11-29-2010, 08:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
The constitution (depending on which justice is proffering thier opinion today) does grant us the "right" however (by government) to "keep and bear arms.
But it doesn't say squat about concealing them.
Actually, that is not correct. The US Constitution (and the Bill of Rights) doesn't "grant" us anything at all. It itemizes the powers and limitations of the government, as well as specifically verifying that all powers not granted to the government, belong to the people and the states. Our founding fathers wrote that document as an attempt to keep the beast they knew they were creating bound and chained. That is why our country is actually a constitutional republic, and NOT a democracy at all. All laws stem from the Constitution (theoretically, and if actually ENFORCED by the people), not the whims of the government. Unfortunately, we have let the beast loose of it's chains, and it will be the devil to pay to get it bound back up again.
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Unread 11-29-2010, 09:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Actually, that is not correct. The US Constitution (and the Bill of Rights) doesn't "grant" us anything at all. It itemizes the powers and limitations of the government, as well as specifically verifying that all powers not granted to the government, belong to the people and the states. Our founding fathers wrote that document as an attempt to keep the beast they knew they were creating bound and chained. That is why our country is actually a constitutional republic, and NOT a democracy at all. All laws stem from the Constitution (theoretically, and if actually ENFORCED by the people), not the whims of the government. Unfortunately, we have let the beast loose of it's chains, and it will be the devil to pay to get it bound back up again.
The Bil of Rights confirms that we have that right. What if that confirmation wasn't in there? You're both saying the same thing.
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Unread 11-29-2010, 10:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Actually, that is not correct. The US Constitution (and the Bill of Rights) doesn't "grant" us anything at all. It itemizes the powers and limitations of the government, as well as specifically verifying that all powers not granted to the government, belong to the people and the states. Our founding fathers wrote that document as an attempt to keep the beast they knew they were creating bound and chained. That is why our country is actually a constitutional republic, and NOT a democracy at all. All laws stem from the Constitution (theoretically, and if actually ENFORCED by the people), not the whims of the government. Unfortunately, we have let the beast loose of it's chains, and it will be the devil to pay to get it bound back up again.
Tomato, toMato.

Bob has a point.

And thanks Tracy.

And I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you in this point.

Although many of our laws support the Constitution, many were once based on Old English "common" Law, much of which was based on religious principles at the time.
For better or for worse, they've changed over time.
Also, the constitution is a living, changing document.

But we're getting off track.

The original question was...do you have a "right" to defend yourself?

My answer is still yes, but not necessarily with a firearm.
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Last edited by Shadow; 11-29-2010 at 10:54 PM.
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Unread 11-30-2010, 12:17 AM   #8
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The Bil of Rights confirms that we have that right. What if that confirmation wasn't in there? You're both saying the same thing.
Actually no, it's not the same thing. "Granting" and "confirming" are NOT the same thing at all. The US Constitution and the Bill of Rights were not written by the government at all. They were written by people endeavoring to CREATE the government and thereby used as a rule book to try to CONTROL the government. The Bill of Rights was written in order to quell complaints that the US Constitution did not go far enough to protect the people from the government they were creating. Not surprisingly, after recently escaping from the control of England, our forefathers did not want to just jump right back into that situation again with our own newly created government. So they tried as best they can to keep that from happening.

Again, Shadow's comment was:
"The constitution (depending on which justice is proffering thier opinion today) does grant us the "right" however (by government) to "keep and bear arms."

But it's a common mistake for people to believe that those documents detailed the privileges that the government allows us to have, rather than the other way around.

And I do believe that our forefathers knew the difficulty we would have keeping out government within the bounds they set.

Quote:
NUMBER: 1593
AUTHOR: Benjamin Franklin (1706–90)
QUOTATION: “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?”

“A Republic, if you can keep it.”
ATTRIBUTION: The response is attributed to BENJAMIN FRANKLIN—at the close of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, when queried as he left Independence Hall on the final day of deliberation—in the notes of Dr. James McHenry, one of Maryland’s delegates to the Convention.

McHenry’s notes were first published in The American Historical Review, vol. 11, 1906, and the anecdote on p. 618 reads: “A lady asked Dr. Franklin Well Doctor what have we got a republic or a monarchy. A republic replied the Doctor if you can keep it.” When McHenry’s notes were included in The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, ed. Max Farrand, vol. 3, appendix A, p. 85 (1911, reprinted 1934), a footnote stated that the date this anecdote was written is uncertain.
SUBJECTS: Republic
WORKS: Benjamin Franklin Collection
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Unread 11-30-2010, 12:32 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Although many of our laws support the Constitution, many were once based on Old English "common" Law, much of which was based on religious principles at the time.
For better or for worse, they've changed over time.
Also, the constitution is a living, changing document.
Actually all of our laws are SUPPOSED to support and be authorized by the US Constitution. Otherwise they are UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and therefore invalid.


I guess it depends on what you mean by "living, changing document". In order to CHANGE the US Constitution, there are specific measures written into it in order to do so which are the ONLY valid and legal means of change.

And they are:
  1. First Method -- Amendment is proposed by Congress by a two-thirds vote in both houses, then ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures (38 of 50)(27 adopted).
  2. Second Method -- Amendment is proposed by Congress by a two-thirds vote in both houses, then ratified by special conventions in three-fourths of the States (38 of 50)(Only repeal of prohibition, i.e., 21st Amendment adopted in this fashion).
  3. Third Method -- Amendment is proposed at a national convention when requested by two-thirds of the State legislatures (34 of 50), then ratified by three-fourths of the State legislatures (38 of 50).
  4. Fourth Method -- Amendment is proposed at a national convention called by Congress when requested by two-thirds of the State legislatures (34 of 50), then ratified by special conventions held in three-fourths of the States (38 of 50).

The Constitution does not change it's meaning because interpretations of terms change over time. Especially when it is the government itself doing the interpretting to suit it's own goals. Whatever the Constitution meant when it was written is how it should be interpreted today. Which basically means that the ORIGINAL LETTER and INTENT of the Constitution are what bills written by congress need to use as the guiding principles to determine if they qualify to become LAW.

Heck, I can STILL remember in grade school my teacher telling the class that the Second Amendment was written only to protect the settlers from indians and was now considered to be obsolete. With that sort of crap coming from the educational system, no darn wonder so many people have no earthly idea what the Constitution is REALLY about.
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Unread 11-30-2010, 05:29 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by als2052 View Post
My motto: Shoot first then ask all the questions you want...
OR, "I RATHER BE TRIED BY 12, THAN CARRIED OUT BY SIX"...
Amen

Last edited by Shadow; 11-30-2010 at 07:32 AM.
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