Miami to arm police with assault weapons

This in today's St Pete times..
MIAMI - A rise in assault rifle use by criminals has spurred Miami's police chief to authorize patrol officers to carry similar weapons, he said Sunday.

Police Chief John Timoney approved the new policy last week. That was even before a Miami-Dade police officer was killed in a shootout with an assault rifle-wielding suspect on Thursday. The new policy has been under review for about a year due to officers seeing an increase in the weapons, Timoney said.

"This is something we do not do with any relish. We do this reluctantly," Timoney said.

The chief blamed the 2004 expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons for the escalation of heavily armed violence on Miami's streets. He said AK-47s have become a "gun of choice" for criminals.

Years ago, law enforcement specialists like SWAT teams were the only officers to carry the assault-style weapons, but now even small-town police agencies are expanding access to the AR-15, a civilian version of the military M-16 rifle.

Patrol officers in Danbury, Conn., have been allowed to carry the weapons since 2003. Police departments in Merced, Calif., and Waterloo, Iowa, have deployed them in all patrol vehicles for several years. In Stillwater, Okla., about 70 miles west of Tulsa, every police patrol officer is issued an AR-15.

Officers in Los Angeles have been equipped with the weapons even longer, since soon after a 1997 gunfight outside a bank where police faced a man armed with an AK-47. Officers in that situation had to go to a nearby gun store to get high-velocity weapons.

Timoney said it has become apparent over the last year that Miami officers need the option of more powerful weapons. For example, he said an officer responding to a domestic dispute recently found the man sleeping with an AK-47.

The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons. This year, 12 of the 60 homicides have involved the high-power guns.

As a precaution, officers using the weapons in Miami will shoot "frangible" bullets, which shatter after they've hit something to avoid striking bystanders or other unintended targets.

In addition, officers interested in the guns will also have to undergo two days of training and be certified to use the weapons, which the police force doesn't yet have money to purchase. If officers want the guns now, they will have to pay for them, Timoney said.

Not all officers may choose to carry the new weapon. But, said Timoney: "If I was a police officer out there in a tough neighborhood, I would want to have that in the car."

Very Good Idea...

zzzona said:

This in today's St Pete times..
MIAMI - A rise in assault rifle use by criminals has spurred Miami's police chief to authorize patrol officers to carry similar weapons, he said Sunday.

Police Chief John Timoney approved the new policy last week. That was even before a Miami-Dade police officer was killed in a shootout with an assault rifle-wielding suspect on Thursday. The new policy has been under review for about a year due to officers seeing an increase in the weapons, Timoney said.

"This is something we do not do with any relish. We do this reluctantly," Timoney said.

Why relcutantly? Thats just the type of administrative thinking that gets officers killed
This should have been done decades ago. It was up here:thumbsup:

The chief blamed the 2004 expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons for the escalation of heavily armed violence on Miami's streets. He said AK-47s have become a "gun of choice" for criminals.

Bullchit!!! Stop laying the blame on assault weapons:nonod: It's not the "weapon" that kills...it's the scumbag behind it. You want to lay blame knucklehead?
try blaming the courts that keep turing out criminals! Try blaming youself and the FEDS for not aggressively pursuing the illegal gun trade. Stop whining and do something proactive!

Years ago, law enforcement specialists like SWAT teams were the only officers to carry the assault-style weapons, but now even small-town police agencies are expanding access to the AR-15, a civilian version of the military M-16 rifle.

No chit Sherlock? What rock did you crawl from under? (no offense to snakes Rich:rofl1: )

Patrol officers in Danbury, Conn., have been allowed to carry the weapons since 2003. Police departments in Merced, Calif., and Waterloo, Iowa, have deployed them in all patrol vehicles for several years. In Stillwater, Okla., about 70 miles west of Tulsa, every police patrol officer is issued an AR-15.

Officers in Los Angeles have been equipped with the weapons even longer, since soon after a 1997 gunfight outside a bank where police faced a man armed with an AK-47. Officers in that situation had to go to a nearby gun store to get high-velocity weapons.

Timoney said it has become apparent over the last year that Miami officers need the option of more powerful weapons. For example, he said an officer responding to a domestic dispute recently found the man sleeping with an AK-47.

The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons. This year, 12 of the 60 homicides have involved the high-power guns.

As a precaution, officers using the weapons in Miami will shoot "frangible" bullets, which shatter after they've hit something to avoid striking bystanders or other unintended targets.


This is great except when you need to penetrate a car door:thumbsdown:

In addition, officers interested in the guns will also have to undergo two days of training and be certified to use the weapons, which the police force doesn't yet have money to purchase. If officers want the guns now, they will have to pay for them, Timoney said.

Hell no! We have to pay for pay raises and useless promotions first Besides, we need a new fleet of cars every year:nonod:

Not all officers may choose to carry the new weapon. But, said Timoney: "If I was a police officer out there in a tough neighborhood, I would want to have that in the car."

Click to expand...

See bolded responses above

The idea in premise is great:thumbsup: Here's the problem. In many of the recent and evenh less recent shootings, the perps shot the officer as the officer approached a car, or a door on a "routine" call (God! I hate that word!)

Unless you're going to approach like a soldier, weapon in hand and at the ready, it's pretty useless to you in the car.

If you have it in your hand, you now have your hands tied. When you need to wrestle or tazer a suspect, even hand cuff them, you have to do something with the weapon. Big problem

Training and more tactical style training at that is key. Administrations for the most part, just don't think that way

I don't think every officer will only have specific ammo..
And I agree it is not a solution..it sort of evens the odds in some cases and if it only saves one life it is worth it. I am not speaking with any experience in law enforcement, but I do know what overwhelming firepower can do...

The whole idea of a Law Enforcement Officer being able to meet a threat with an equal or greater defense is probably just a moot point. The ACLU will find a way to show that it violates the citizen's constitutional right. During my career, every time the Sheriff proposed a new and superior weapon there was always some bleeding heart liberal individual or group right there trying to quash the idea. Am I glad I am retired ? YOU BET !!!

I live about 5 minutes from miami, i go there everyweekend for races, and i know in this area, since im in highschool i know A LOT of kids with AK-47s and AR-15s and Beretta assault rifles and all kinds of high powered guns like that, many of them keep them in their cars, i know a lot of kids who have pistols on them daily, but since ive gotten into highschool ive seen a big increase of kids with much more powerful and faster guns... all of these kids i know with these guns have extended clips with "armor piercing bullets"... so i can just imagine if kids in highschool have guns like this, what older people in liberty city and carol city and places like that have... so that would b good if police had guns that could be equal or better to the guns that the criminals have.

Bracket Monster said:

I live about 5 minutes from miami, i go there everyweekend for races, and i know in this area, since im in highschool i know A LOT of kids with AK-47s and AR-15s and Beretta assault rifles and all kinds of high powered guns like that, many of them keep them in their cars, i know a lot of kids who have pistols on them daily, but since ive gotten into highschool ive seen a big increase of kids with much more powerful and faster guns... all of these kids i know with these guns have extended clips with "armor piercing bullets"... so i can just imagine if kids in highschool have guns like this, what older people in liberty city and carol city and places like that have... so that would b good if police had guns that could be equal or better to the guns that the criminals have.

Click to expand...

I believe that any handgun holding armor piercing ammo in it is a violation of both state and federal law. I haven't seen ammo piercing handgun ammo offered for sale for at least 30 years. Not to mention the fact that handgun ammo generally does not generate enough velocity for even a penetrating core projectile to be able to defeat TRUE armor.

As for ballistic vests, several types of legal handgun projectiles can penetrate all but the most durable vests. But the military definition of "armor" does not include personal vests.

zzzona said:

This in today's St Pete times..
MIAMI - A rise in assault rifle use by criminals has spurred Miami's police chief to authorize patrol officers to carry similar weapons, he said Sunday.

Police Chief John Timoney approved the new policy last week. That was even before a Miami-Dade police officer was killed in a shootout with an assault rifle-wielding suspect on Thursday. The new policy has been under review for about a year due to officers seeing an increase in the weapons, Timoney said.

"This is something we do not do with any relish. We do this reluctantly," Timoney said.

The chief blamed the 2004 expiration of the federal ban on assault weapons for the escalation of heavily armed violence on Miami's streets. He said AK-47s have become a "gun of choice" for criminals.

Years ago, law enforcement specialists like SWAT teams were the only officers to carry the assault-style weapons, but now even small-town police agencies are expanding access to the AR-15, a civilian version of the military M-16 rifle.

Patrol officers in Danbury, Conn., have been allowed to carry the weapons since 2003. Police departments in Merced, Calif., and Waterloo, Iowa, have deployed them in all patrol vehicles for several years. In Stillwater, Okla., about 70 miles west of Tulsa, every police patrol officer is issued an AR-15.

Officers in Los Angeles have been equipped with the weapons even longer, since soon after a 1997 gunfight outside a bank where police faced a man armed with an AK-47. Officers in that situation had to go to a nearby gun store to get high-velocity weapons.

Timoney said it has become apparent over the last year that Miami officers need the option of more powerful weapons. For example, he said an officer responding to a domestic dispute recently found the man sleeping with an AK-47.

The Miami Police Department said 15 of its 79 homicides last year involved assault weapons. This year, 12 of the 60 homicides have involved the high-power guns.

As a precaution, officers using the weapons in Miami will shoot "frangible" bullets, which shatter after they've hit something to avoid striking bystanders or other unintended targets.

In addition, officers interested in the guns will also have to undergo two days of training and be certified to use the weapons, which the police force doesn't yet have money to purchase. If officers want the guns now, they will have to pay for them, Timoney said.

Not all officers may choose to carry the new weapon. But, said Timoney: "If I was a police officer out there in a tough neighborhood, I would want to have that in the car."

Click to expand...

Man, what a crock of political posturing BS this is! For one thing the "assault weapon" ban basically did nothing at all, which is why it sunsetted. All the same guns were still available legally as long as they didn't have some arbitrary combination of grip, muzzle brake (flash suppressor), collapsible or folding stock, and magazine well.

And "assault weapons" are NOT more powerful at all. Matter of fact, the definition of "assault weapon" is on that uses an intermediary power cartridge such as the 5.56 and 7.62x39 rounds. In most knowledgeable circles, the 5.56 (or .223) rounds (which is the round the AR-15 utilizes) are considered fairly useful for small to mid-sized animal varmints, but are not even considered suitable for deer hunting.

Truth be known, a 30-06 hunting rifle is a much more potent weapon to run up against. Even the .308 will far outclass the assault weapon calibers on an even playing field.

It's all smoke and mirrors. The Democrats would love nothing better than to get the "feel good" assault weapon ban instituted again to try to ease that stinging rebuke they got when it was overwhelmingly rejected at the time it sunsetted..

Bracket Monster said:

I live about 5 minutes from miami, i go there everyweekend for races, and i know in this area, since im in highschool i know A LOT of kids with AK-47s and AR-15s and Beretta assault rifles and all kinds of high powered guns like that, many of them keep them in their cars, i know a lot of kids who have pistols on them daily, but since ive gotten into highschool ive seen a big increase of kids with much more powerful and faster guns... all of these kids i know with these guns have extended clips with "armor piercing bullets"... so i can just imagine if kids in highschool have guns like this, what older people in liberty city and carol city and places like that have... so that would b good if police had guns that could be equal or better to the guns that the criminals have.

Click to expand...

Dude,

If you "know" this stuff is happening, report it! You can do so annonymously for God's sake.

Weapons on any school property is illegal in Florida.

The weapons you mention are no illegal unless they meet certain requirement; however, it'd be damned nice to know whose packin' what where?

Besides, if they have felony records, or the weapons are concealed (within certain guidelines) within the car or on the person, that too is illegal.

I'm not picking on you brother, but this is EXACTLY why we have these problems. People who know won't tell Then when somebody gets offed, we wring our phucking hands and go (my best Eeore here) oh, me oh my

zzzona said:

I don't think every officer will only have specific ammo..
And I agree it is not a solution..it sort of evens the odds in some cases and if it only saves one life it is worth it. I am not speaking with any experience in law enforcement, but I do know what overwhelming firepower can do...

Click to expand...

You're right, but it only evens the odds when they have the chance
In a sniper situation, or taking fire from an unk. assailant, the presence and availability of an "assault weapon" is a good thing. Situations like the NORCO shooting and some others would be a great time to have them...when you have the time to deploy them.

The problem, is in most police shootings and the related calls/activities, there's little if any warning and absolutely no time to ready them. On you're regular traffic stop, their totally worthless. Most domestics, I wouldn't approach the house with one in hand either. No where to place it when the chit hits the fan.

The problem still boils back down to manpower and TACTICS:thumbsup:

Hell, there are still administrators resisting the active shooter programs????

We need to spend MORE TIME TRAINING in deployment tactics and high risk responses, and less time in the class room learning how to be politically correct!

Weapons be damned! If you don't have it ready, in most case, you'd just as well leave it at home. One more thing for the little puke bastitches to break into the car to steal

Shadow said:

Dude,

If you "know" this stuff is happening, report it! You can do so annonymously for God's sake.

Weapons on any school property is illegal in Florida.

The weapons you mention are no illegal unless they meet certain requirement; however, it'd be damned nice to know whose packin' what where?

Besides, if they have felony records, or the weapons are concealed (within certain guidelines) within the car or on the person, that too is illegal.

I'm not picking on you brother, but this is EXACTLY why we have these problems. People who know won't tell Then when somebody gets offed, we wring our phucking hands and go (my best Eeore here) oh, me oh my

Click to expand...

Not to mention, and correct me if I am wrong, it is illegal for ANYONE under 18 years old to be packing no matter what the circumstances.

Yeah, I know it's a bitter pill to swallow to turn in your friends, but all it takes is one bad incident to get every gun owner behind the eightball because of their ill conceived actions. If they are so indiscreet that EVERYONE knows they have a gun, then they are really just looking for trouble anyway.

Bracket Monster said:

I live about 5 minutes from miami, i go there everyweekend for races, and i know in this area, since im in highschool i know A LOT of kids with AK-47s and AR-15s and Beretta assault rifles and all kinds of high powered guns like that, many of them keep them in their cars, i know a lot of kids who have pistols on them daily, but since ive gotten into highschool ive seen a big increase of kids with much more powerful and faster guns... all of these kids i know with these guns have extended clips with "armor piercing bullets"... so i can just imagine if kids in highschool have guns like this, what older people in liberty city and carol city and places like that have... so that would b good if police had guns that could be equal or better to the guns that the criminals have.

Click to expand...

This is nothing new. This has been going on since I was a kid twenty years ago and yes I am from Carol City/Opa-Locka borned and raised. I'm glad to see regardless of anyone's feelings that MPD is carrying assault rifles. It was the lack of semi-automatic weapons that lead to so much bloodshed in the late '70's and early '80's when the cops carried standard .38 revolvers. Thank the Miami River Cops Case for departments now carrying Glocks.

Hopefully Miami-Dade PD will follow and as I wrote on another post, check the history of the MDPD. They have a history of being proactive rather then reactive. Remember that CENTAC (26) had been reinstated out of the MDPD back in the '80's to combat those "untouchable" criminals. I feel better knowing they have them then not.
If they had them, maybe an officer still dies that day, but instead of four being shot maybe it's only two and we don't have to spend all those manhours searching for the killer. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

Bracket Monster, just to correct you, you could not get from Fort Laud to Miami in 5 minutes via helicopter!!!

Quite an interesting array of responses, and as I expected, much ignorance from the uninformed folks in our forum. Shadow, with his many years of experience, is right on the money. The issuing of assault rifles seems to be a typical "knee jerk" reaction aimed more at easing the public's nerves than being a quick fix for the problem at hand.

And as far as the ammunition we Law Enforcement Officers use, yes, my agency issues every one of us the same hollow point rounds for our Glock .45's and the same hollow point rounds for our M16A1's. The metro/city agencies use frangible ammo. It is NOT our option to choose. My agency has reluctantly conceded the need for assault style rifles over the last five or six years, with only those of us with prior military experience being allowed to carry them at first, and even then we had to supply our own rifles. We eventually were issued military surplus equipment, and practically all of us proudly carry our weapons in the front seat of our cruisers, where, as Shadow alluded to, it would take less than four seconds for a methed up dirtbag to break a window out and have the rifle at the ready. Then your weapon is a serious liablity.

What the general public doesn't seem to get is the fact that we have to follow rules, unlike the bad guys, who have the ACLU on their side, standing up for their rights. And the latest trend is the young punks who are "gangsta wannabes", carrying the heat around with them just waiting for an excuse to use it. It's really getting out of control folks, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.

As for the armor piercing ammo, it is a crime to sell it, but it is NOT a crime to possess it, unless you intend to use it in the commision of a crime!? Well what else are you gonna do with it, hunt Elk that are wearing body armor? That's another issue. Law enforcement generally have the lightest armor available, (SWAT/TAC teams excluded) especially here in Florida. Why? Because of the expense and because it's so hot and humid. My vest is made to withstand a hit from a handgun, not a supersonic round from a .223 or a 7.62.Many officers neglect to wear it at all becase it's like wearing a coat in July. Try standing in the sun on hot pavement when it's 98 degrees with 90% humidity and see how long it takes you to come out of it. I've worked traffic crashes for an hour or more in weather like that.

Folks, this problem didn't happen overnight and it's not gonna get fixed overnight. It's time for the lawmakers to do what is needed to win this war on street crime. It's also time for citizens to act responsibly and report illicit activity instead of taking the "not my problem" approach.

85vette said:

It's time for the lawmakers to do what is needed to win this war on street crime.

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So, what IS needed? I think there are as many opinions on that as there are in any other hot topic...

Rich Z said:

So, what IS needed? I think there are as many opinions on that as there are in any other hot topic...

Click to expand...

Thanks 85, and Rich, there are no steadfast answers to this long standing problem

There are opinions, many of which as 85 mentioned are not rooted in fact or experience.

I'm sure Ken could chime in on this as well with all his years in the trenches.:thumbsup:

Although again, there are no answers, some things that could be done:

1) Enforce and support the penalties in place. Stop the BS probation and community service nonsense for violent crime. Stop allowing the state to accept a lesser included charge on a plea bargain, for the sake of expediency!!!

2) More officers/detectives assigned to U/C & federal task forces to combat the illegal flow of certain firearms, posession of said firearms by those no authorized, and more gang related investigations.

I hate to say it, but "crime prevention" isn't working

3) Instead of having sworn officers assigned to the damned P.R. unit (Crime prevention), assign Community Service Officers, civillian officers to those functions, speaking engagements and the like and make better use of the sowrn personnel available.

4) Use your reserve/auxilliary officers to saturate certain areas. Hell, this is a ready force of sworn police officers, that cost the tax [ayers little if anything to keep or use. Our (former) agency had us out on special occasions at NO COST to the citizens. Damn it! Use them!

There's a lot of training, experience and expertise in many of those reservist. Many have lengthy backgrounds and left the full time service for other occupations or due for other honorable reasons (or they wouldn't still be sworn).
Use that resource wisely.

5) Training- I hate to sound like a broken record and it's usually the one thing most cops hate, but training, repetitive training on high-risk topics (alarm response, domestic response, traffic stops and the like) will save your ass!!!

6) Finally, learn from the mistakes and misfortunes of others. It's an unfortunate certainty that some of us (yeah, I still say "us.") will loose thier lives in the line of duty

Some due to circumstances beyond thier control, some from mistakes.

Study all those losses of life and never let them die in vain!

Try to learn to minimize the events you can't control, control what you can and not repeat the same mistakes as others.

85 also brings up another good point. Many departments have gone to a more tactical uniform, darker colors and heavier materiel. Add the Florida heat to the uniform, throw in a vest for good measure and, well, as he said, see how long it takes you to get out of it.

Mine stayed in the trunk during most of the hottest months here I knew better, but hey, enough was enough!

Let another officer get shot and everyone's vest came out for a few weeks. Then the novelty wore off, the complacency set in, and back in the trunk

When I became a motor cop- I hardly ever wore it. Most don't. I do recall being so hot on one motor day that things got fuzzy and started moving....uh, they were previously stationary

Had to loosen the straps on the helmet and take a quick breeze out across the Causeway just to cool off.

Whats needed in this regard, is more R&D on tactical clothing and equipment thats user friendly:thumbsup:.
Light weight materiels and such that the officers will wear. And unfortunately, as some agencies have had to do, a MANDATE to wear your issued gear, regardless of the heat. We're (LEOS) a hardheaded lot and sometimes have to be hit with a brick twice to get the message across.

Finally back to the weapons, again, training. Tactical deployment and use of said weapons should be mandatory. Having the tools for the job without the knowledge or training to use them, well, I gots me a hammer, but I sure as hell can't build a house!!!

Come to think about it. After my last qualification day, I need to get my arse back to the range......I sucked!