Thermostat snake oil? - Page 2

Black C5 · 05-29-2006, 11:52 PM

Over the years I have used low temp thermostats and removed them completely thinking "cool is better". It is true with intake air, but not necessarily true with running temps. I read a chart recently that showed the ware and friction rates of the metal parts in our engines and at lower temps the friction coefficient was many times that of a "hot" engine. Try this yourself: the next time you are going on a freeway trip, watch your oil temp and fuel mileage readouts. I drive the freeway everyday 1/2 hour each way and my fuel mileage is ALWAYS two or three mpg BETTER after the oil temp tops 190. If the motor is pushing the car with more power per gallon cruising, why isn't it the same at the dragstrip. Our motors were designed to run around 200 degrees, both oil and water. I need to see documentation that lower oil temp means more HP.

Snake Oil IMHO!

**Rich Z** · 05-30-2006, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EatRice

Rich....I can not believe you did not pick up on his bull from his second post. He claims that "Florida" people should use a 160 degree thermostat but he has no accurate explaination as to why. "The stock stat in a C5 is like 187 or something.....but,....at what temp do stock C5's run at....a lot more....." quote from Chuck. Since he is a "tuner" and giving advice as to why you should use said thermostat he should be able to accurately advise you why you should a 160 degree thermostat. His answer of the car has a factory 187 or something is garbage. He does not even know what the factory unit it or the factory running temp or the optimual running temp. Without that information he is just talking out his butt. Then add on the information that he "tunes" without a dyno he is totally full of crap. A dyno is the best format for tuning a car next to the race track. Nobody can tune a car safely or to the car's fullest potential on the street. I say tell the quack to fly a kite.

As for the thermostat...it's job is to keep the car within it's proper operating tempature. Coolant is absorbs the heat and removes through the radiator. The thermostat opens with the coolant reaches a predetermined tempature allowing the coolant to flow.

If you do not have an overheating issue then don't mess with the thermostat.

In many instances, a confrontation is not needed to paint a true picture of someone. Simply ask questions that you already know the answers to and implies to other people what you think the answer should be as well. They can then make their own determination about what is going on based on the answers given by the other party. No arguments, no confrontation, just handing someone the rope....

16again · 05-31-2006, 02:16 PM

I see he answered you again, must be pissing him off by now. I like his little shot........
This is just 1 paragraph from his reply to you Rich
I'm doing EXACTLY what GM did....They installed a 187 stat to make the car run at about 220..... and I install 160 stats and change fan temps to make it run at just under 200.......Simple math (although some will still wish to continue to argue a moot point just for the sake of arguing) Look at the spread from the stat to the operating temp....it's almost the same from GM's design to mine....an we both accomplish EXACTLY what we wanted....NO ACCIDENT for them or me... We DESIGNED it to be this way ....and it works Perfectly.

**Rich Z** · 05-31-2006, 03:58 PM

Well, I just monitored my coolant temps on a drive for about an hour and a half, and the temps averaged right around 192 degrees. When I was driving slow on the unpaved road heading back to my home, the temps climbed to 205 then obviously the fans kicked in to take the temps back down to 196 or so.

Personally, I think his whole argument is very weak. The thermostat is there for one reason, which winds up having two benefits. The reason is to allow the engine to heat up more quickly from a cold start then it could without it. The benefits of this are:

The engine reaches optimum running temperature more quickly
The heater works faster on cold mornings to get warm air pumping into the passenger compartment for comfort.

The fans are apparently designed to work when the coolant rises above a specific point, likely caused by lack of airflow through the radiator because of low driving speed. The fans are trying to produce airflow through the radiator that is absent because of the low driving speed, such as in heavy traffic. The engine compartment on the vette is pretty enclosed, and this obviously was a solution to an overheating problem that driving in traffic would cause.

What I would like to see is ANYONE at all who claims that they can drive on a highway at 60 miles an hour and actually witness their coolant temperature dropping below 160 degrees at any point, thereby triggering that thermostat to close to try to reheat the coolant. Ain't going to happen, in my opinion. Maybe if you live up in the arctic circle somewhere, this might possibly happen, but in Florida? I seriously doubt that.

So how long do you think I will be able to address that guy before getting the warning from the mods there? Honestly I find it difficult to believe that they would forcibly allow someone to post false and misleading info without question simply because they are a paid supporter.

16again · 05-31-2006, 04:31 PM

Hey Rich, don't waste your time. This clown is just not worth the effort.

Anyway, go back and check the copper lines on another guy's car who is getting guidance from Chuckie in the same thread. I about wet myself looking at the photo's.

Bob

Formula Outlaw · 06-10-2006, 08:53 AM

This is an interesting thread.

As I understand it, running an engine without a thermostat allows the flow to be such that it's not circulating in the engine long enough to remove the heat properly. So, to be clear: you remove the thermostate and you may notice a decrease in your coolant guage reading, however that is THAT, the coolant temperature, NOT the motor temperature. So while the coolant temperatue may be lower, the engine itself may be running hotter, again, because the coolant is rushing through the engine so quickly it's not picking up the heat.

My 65' L76 was found not to have a thermostat in it, and the guage always was straight up and down at 180, however at long lights it would heat up quickly to 215/220. I put a 160 thermostat in it and it now reads around 190/195, BUT, it does not heat up at lights like it did before. We double checked this with a temperature sensor gun.....it's right on. So even though my guage is reading a bit higher, my engine is actually running a bit cooler because the coolant is now in there long enough to remove heat.....it's a bit confusing but it's the deal.....

Formula Outlaw · 06-10-2006, 08:57 AM

Where in CF is this discussion going on??? I hang mostly in the C2 section...

exile · 06-10-2006, 09:25 AM

Morning Russ, I think they are referring to this thread:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...p?p=1555450356

**Rich Z** · 06-10-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formula Outlaw

This is an interesting thread.

As I understand it, running an engine without a thermostat allows the flow to be such that it's not circulating in the engine long enough to remove the heat properly. So, to be clear: you remove the thermostate and you may notice a decrease in your coolant guage reading, however that is THAT, the coolant temperature, NOT the motor temperature. So while the coolant temperatue may be lower, the engine itself may be running hotter, again, because the coolant is rushing through the engine so quickly it's not picking up the heat.

My 65' L76 was found not to have a thermostat in it, and the guage always was straight up and down at 180, however at long lights it would heat up quickly to 215/220. I put a 160 thermostat in it and it now reads around 190/195, BUT, it does not heat up at lights like it did before. We double checked this with a temperature sensor gun.....it's right on. So even though my guage is reading a bit higher, my engine is actually running a bit cooler because the coolant is now in there long enough to remove heat.....it's a bit confusing but it's the deal.....

Hmm, where is the coolant temperature sensor actually located?

Actually I have never heard this explained this way. Logic seems to indicate that the faster the flow of coolant the MORE heat would be extracted from the surfaces it flows over, since faster flow would indicate more cooler fluid passing over those heated surfaces. To give you an example, occasionally I will run a long string of garden hoses across the backyard in full sunlight and run water through them into the pool to heat the water up. Yeah a kluge of a system, but it works.

Upon startup of this kluge, I can run the flow fairly high and the water is HOT to the touch at the beginning since the hose is well heated by the sunlight normally. However, once the hose has been cooled by the flowing water, I have to reduce the flow to just a trickle because the water now makes the hose cool to the touch and doesn't give me the hot water I want going into the pool. This kind of supports what you are saying in that the flow of water needs to be reduced in order for the coolant itself to pick up the heat from the hose itself. However in this case, I WANT the coolant to be heated up and the reduction of heat of the hose itself is actually irrelevant. If my goal was the reverse, to reduce the heat of the hose, then the higher flow of coolant would be beneficial in this case to reach that goal.

Maybe this doesn't apply at all to the way the coolant system in an automobile works, since it is not a closed loop circulating system, but I would think the same basic principles would apply concerning heat transfer.

Yeah, this is an interesting topic.........

Black C5 · 06-12-2006, 11:01 PM

Good obsurvation Rich! I don't understand all the physics of heat transfer, but I know in the old days of the flathead Ford V8 that overheating could be solved by putting large washers in the two radiator hoses to SLOW the water down. It seems that water molecules need some time to make the heat transfer. An engine produces a lot more heat than a garden hose in the sun and the cold, uncirculated water in the hose overwhelms any heat soak from the sun. Even in a motor, if you take the plug out of the bottom of the radiator and run cold water from the hose into it, the motor stays cool.
David.