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General BS forum I guess this will be for anything that would seem to be off topic in any other forum here. Just general shootin' the breeze kind of topics.

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Unread 07-05-2010, 12:24 PM   #51
mickeystoysz16
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I think there is a question that has not been asked and that is a big concern. If law enforcement knew that he was a suspect in another homicide, why did the guys on the front line not have that kind of intel vs. just a minor warrant out of Jax. If I were a police officer I would definatly have a different approach when trying to aprrehend a murderer vs. a check bouncer. Maybe the officers would have approached the vehicle with weapons drawn until he was in cuffs and could not resist at least giving them a chance as they tried to detain and search Morris? What is the TPD training and proceedure in approaching a suspect in different threat levels? I don't know maybe I am completly out of line in the civilian world. Please keep in mind I have a different training in the method of search and detaining POW's, but I ccertainly believe the basics are the same when it comes to the officers' safety.

I see this as a leadership failure that cost two good men their lives.

Police Chief Castor and Mayor Iroio I believe you have some questions to answer like why did Officer Kopac and Officer Curtis not know who this man was when they made the stop?
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Unread 07-05-2010, 12:59 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeystoysz16 View Post
I think there is a question that has not been asked and that is a big concern. If law enforcement knew that he was a suspect in another homicide, why did the guys on the front line not have that kind of intel vs. just a minor warrant out of Jax. If I were a police officer I would definatly have a different approach when trying to aprrehend a murderer vs. a check bouncer. Maybe the officers would have approached the vehicle with weapons drawn until he was in cuffs and could not resist at least giving them a chance as they tried to detain and search Morris? What is the TPD training and proceedure in approaching a suspect in different threat levels? I don't know maybe I am completly out of line in the civilian world. Please keep in mind I have a different training in the method of search and detaining POW's, but I ccertainly believe the basics are the same when it comes to the officers' safety.

I see this as a leadership failure that cost two good men their lives.

Police Chief Castor and Mayor Iroio I believe you have some questions to answer like why did Officer Kopac and Officer Curtis not know who this man was when they made the stop?
Most likely a lack of communication. I don't know the details of the stop, but it obviously wasn't a felony stop or this would not have happened. Most likely it was a "routine" traffic stop, probably for a traffic violation. In which case the officer would make contact with the person(s) and run them for local checks. If there was a warrant from another agency it would not show up on a local check. NCIC would show it, but unless they felt they had a reason to run him NCIC they don't. Maybe more details will be released and we can get a better idea of what really happened. Generally I observe the subject's demeanor on a traffic stop to see if they are agitated, nervous, etc. That sets the tone for my level of response, as it should. But, not having been there I can only speculate on what went wrong. But I wouldn't be too quick to condemn the agency until more is known. It's a tragedy that should not have happened, but there are many variables that likely contributed to this disaster. Pray that we all can learn from it and not fall to complacency.
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Unread 07-05-2010, 03:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rich Z View Post
Yeah, the real problem with the justice system, the political system, and the Constitution itself is that it presumes that it will be managed and enforced by honest, fair, and altruistic individuals. When it comes right down to it, it's really not a failure of the systems themselves, it's just the simple fact of the matter that PEOPLE are flawed, and no system can really fix that kind of a problem. Power over others just tends to corrupt those wielding that power, because that's just the way people are. Heck if people were perfect, I guess there really wouldn't be a need for much of the justice system then, now would it?

Nope!

But something tells me that if such systems were completely run by computers running strictly off of rules and logic, and everything was flatly black or white, with no gray areas allowing personal discretion, no one would be happy about that type of a system neither.

Nope!

Anyway, glad the guy got caught, and glad no one else got hurt during that event.
Yep!

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Originally Posted by 85vette View Post
Most likely a lack of communication. I don't know the details of the stop, but it obviously wasn't a felony stop or this would not have happened. Most likely it was a "routine" traffic stop, probably for a traffic violation. In which case the officer would make contact with the person(s) and run them for local checks. If there was a warrant from another agency it would not show up on a local check. NCIC would show it, but unless they felt they had a reason to run him NCIC they don't. Maybe more details will be released and we can get a better idea of what really happened. Generally I observe the subject's demeanor on a traffic stop to see if they are agitated, nervous, etc. That sets the tone for my level of response, as it should. But, not having been there I can only speculate on what went wrong. But I wouldn't be too quick to condemn the agency until more is known. It's a tragedy that should not have happened, but there are many variables that likely contributed to this disaster. Pray that we all can learn from it and not fall to complacency.
This is key!

We hae to learn, make changes and try not to allow such things to occur again.

FWIW-Mickey's right....and so is 85

You seldom know the whole story when you make a traffic stop.

I can't tell you how many of my generic, BS, tail light out, tag a month expired, traffic stops, turned into felonies very quickly!!

That's how patrol ends up clearing so many felony warrants and cases. It's a numbers game.

If it were a known felony, the stop from beginning to end, would have been handled differently.

Having attended the funeral on Saturday, I learned a lot about these 2 officers. It seems they really had thier **** together. That said, what went wrong?

There's dash cam footage. It will be reviewed, reviewed and reviewd again, until we figure out what went wrong?

The radio comms will be pulled as will computer traffic.

Everyone's response will be checked and double checked to determine what the officers did and did not know, and what they "should" have known.

As for the "intel", that's always been a problem between patrol and detectives

Over the years it's gotten a little better, and more information flows "down" the pipe, but still, if he's only a "person of interest" they may not have had enough to put the word out. Who knows? Maybe TPD policy needs to be reviewed as it regards mediocre intelligence info?
I'm sure these questions will be discussed.


NCIC/FCIC used to be simultaneous. In fact, you had to request only FCIC to get just that. Not sure how the systems are set up today, but I'll know within a few hours.

And no one wants to say it, but there may have been some tactical errors made on the part of the officers. It's hard as hell to get 2 officers killed the way they were killed and never get off a shot

I learned that bothg officers had less than 7 years on the job. Both were very serious about thier jobs and training. That they both trained hard and that one was near the top of his academy class in defensive tactics. Both like to go shooting. One was an accomplished martial artist and enjoyed MMA style fighting. One was a football player.....so what went wrong?

Time and review will tell.

I've never been a big supporter of the new Chief for my own personal reasons; however, after this, I've gained a whole new respect for her. I don't "think" she'll sweep this under the rug. I "think" she'll dig to find the answers without head hunting and trying to point fingers of "blame."

...and that my friends, is how you get things done

Let's give the families and the officers time to grieve. Time to get past this (as much as possible) and time to review the scenarios, and we shoudl see some changes.

It's over. Nothing we can do will change what has already happened. No amount of finger pointing or quarterbacking, will bring the officers back.
The best we can do now, is try to learn from this terrible tragedy, like we did with Ricky & Randy's murder at the hands of that maggot Carr, and try to keep it from happening to another officer.

I think from what I learned about these 2 guys on Saturday, their position would be:

...Time to learn from the situation and move forward

R.I.P. young brothers
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Unread 07-05-2010, 07:32 PM   #54
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I'm not a man of many words but was an LEO training officer for more then 10 years while serving in law enforcement for more then 25 years. I proudly served as a K-9 unit and as a SWAT entry team member and as a detective in Homicide, Property Crimes, Robbery and General Crimes for many years. I was and still am a tactical, thought oriented officer.

As a Deputy Sheriff, trainer, SWAT and detective I will tell you that you TRY to provide every officer with "all the tools" available to survive and to prevail and to triumph in every encounter. But think for a second of how many thousands of scenarios you can (and do) encounter. No two traffic stops are ever the same (and hundreds are done as a matter of course). No two domestic violence calls are ever the same, no two loose animal calls are ever the same, no any other damn type of call is ever (or seldom as dispatched) the same.

You can say all you want about the intel should have been passed down and yes it should have but do you really have any idea of how many contacts a street officer has every day? How many decisions, how many pre-cognitions an officer must have/see/feel and react to?

Do you understand that an officer may respond to a barking dog call followed by a murder, followed by a riot followed by a SWAT call out followed by a dope search or warrant? No you really don't.

And I'd suggest you learn this that reaction NEVER equals action.

I have no apologies if I have ruffled feathers here and now. I remain quiet so often. Maybe you who have not "walked the walk" need to have an idea of what it's really like. Ask Shadow. Ask Larry ask my FHP buddies who never have signal 35.

Ken AKA 1749I
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Unread 07-05-2010, 10:12 PM   #55
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Very well said my Ken my friend

I might add that from where I sit, I don't think anyone here is passing judgment. I think it's a true and sincere interest in the safety of our officers and an attempt to understand what it is that we/they do and do not know at any perticular time.

Like you, I've been a trainer, a range officer, survival tactics instructor and a bunch of other chit....not the least of which was a motor officer.

Stopping cars all day long, responding to in progress calls because you could get thier quicker and go places the cars couldn't, placed us at a much higher risk at times than our 4 wheel borne counterparts.
And as Ken said, every call, every stop, is different in one way or the other from the last or similar call.

You have to learn to roll with the punches as Mr. Jimmy buffett says (come on Ken! you knew I had to get a "Buffettism" in there somewhere didn't you?)

Ken and the rest, we've done our time and for whatever reason, and however it happened, we managed to walk out alive. It's certainly not for lack of trying I know that!

Those that are presently walking the walk, or preparing for that journey, please, pay attention to what's happened here this past week and to the results of what is I'm sure yet to come and may likely be released only to those with a need to know, and DON'T let it happen to you!

I'm not a hugely religious person, although I do have a strong belief. With that I say that I do pray daily, for the safety of those out there and those among us who still meet the call!

Thanks for your service and please stay safe!

And Ken, here's my aka: Mike 31/ID#402-yea, it was a low mofeckin' #)

Gordon
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Unread 07-06-2010, 05:44 AM   #56
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I think it is very hard for the citizen to fully understand what real law enforcement is. TV and the movies have depicted a very distorted view of the profession and this has led to a whole lot of "monday mornin' quarterbacks". During my 25 years, I found the job to be hours, days, sometimes weeks of pure boredom and mundane "routine" calls followed by seconds of adrenaline packed action.

There is nothing "routine" about law enforcement, whether you are an officer in NYC or New Port Richey and until one has walked in the shoes of an LEO they will never know what our brothers and sisters endure on a daily basis.

I sincerely hope that all the finger pointing stops and we rely on the "powers that be" to conduct an unbiased review of the incident and handle it properly. At that time, we need to accept their findings (unless of course any of us have "inside" information) and put it all to rest.

Right now, my heart aches too much for all those that this has intimately touched to sit here and blame anyone.

I hope nobody take this as a personal shot at them, because it wasn't meant to be. It's just that as a LEO, "your damned if you do and your damned if you don't" and that seems to be what's happening right now.

Just a few thoughts from an old cop !!!
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Unread 07-06-2010, 08:08 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap142 View Post

You can say all you want about the intel should have been passed down and yes it should have but do you really have any idea of how many contacts a street officer has every day? How many decisions, how many pre-cognitions an officer must have/see/feel and react to?


And I'd suggest you learn this that reaction NEVER equals action.

I have no apologies if I have ruffled feathers here and now. I remain quiet so often. Maybe you who have not "walked the walk" need to have an idea of what it's really like. Ask Shadow. Ask Larry ask my FHP buddies who never have signal 35.

Ken AKA 1749I
Doug Speirs, Ricky, Randy, the K9 all come to mind for me. These are fresh in my mind and I don't think any disrespect was intended. Most of us were initially shocked when we heard the news and the first thing that crossed my mind was how could this happen?

These were two guys in the prime of life with experience and training and I think it's only natural to try to resolve in a persons mind what may have happened. I agree we need to back off and wait for an update from the PD.

Thoughts and prayers for all of the people involved with these two officers.
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