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Unread 06-24-2013, 02:43 PM   #21
Rich Z
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Well, I've pretty much got the VE table dialed in and the air/fuel ratio is spot on. If I wanted to run the car in purely speed density/open loop mode, I think it would run just fine. But while I am tinkering with this stuff, I want to look at the other options to see if maybe other modes would be better.

For instance, right now I have the MAF completely disabled as well as the fuel trims. My next step will be to re-enable the MAF and do some logging to calibrate the air flow through it. This is done by comparing the commanded fuel with the actual AFR detected by the wideband O2 sensor, and then apply the differences to the MAF table (B5001). This is basically just a single column curve table that provides a lookup of the frequency emitted by the MAF sensor and provides a value of the air movement past it that the PCM uses to determine how much air is going to be filling the cylinders so it can command a correct fuel charge via the fuel injector pulses. So this table has to be correct for the fuel charge to be correct, and consequently will show up in the AFR value detected by the wideband.

I'm thinking that if it runs well on the MAF, I could set it so that the MAF fails at the frequency where the table no longer provides any lookup data. Which is 12000Hz. I know I've seen values higher than that when logging data while in boost, so I'm thinking that if I fail the MAF at 12000Hz, then the fuel tables of the VE table will then take over exclusively, giving me (hopefully) the best combo of MAF tuning and speed density tuning. This is all theory, of course, so it will really depend on how the car FEELS when I drive it. That will ultimately make the decision for me, no matter what the data logging shows.

Then there is the matter of the fuel trims. While tuning the VE table, I had all fuel trims disabled, which is what you want when trying to determine the AFR of each cell in the VE table (B0101). This is a two dimensional table that provides cell intersections based on engine rpm and vacuum/boost as detected by the MAP sensor. But this is pretty much a static snapshot of HERE and NOW when tuning a car in speed density/open loop. And changes in atmospheric conditions will have an effect on this tuning, but how much is subject to debate. I doubt I will ever take that car out to the mountains, and if a huge low pressure cell moves in, I assume hurricane force winds and rain will also possibly be accompanying that cell, so not likely I would take the car our for a spin. But the positive side is that if I have to use ethanol laced gasoline instead of the stuff I'm able to get at the local Sunoco station, then the optimum AFR will change with the different fuel. Fuel trims will compensate for that to keep the engine from running too rich or too lean.

So once the decision is made whether to use the MAF or not, I will then re-enable first the short term fuel trims so see how it runs, then re-enable the long term fuel trims as well.

Of course, I'm now just twiddling my thumbs while thunderstorms whirl all around this area. Not really getting a lot of rain right HERE at the house, but all the roads around me appear to be getting rain if the weather radar is accurate.

So I'm close to wrapping up the major portions of the tuning. There are other things I'm sure I'll be pecking away at for a while longer, though. Things like the decelerator fuel cut off settings, sharpening up throttle response, and certainly trying to get rid of that initial startup stumble when I blip the accelerator. But I'm confident that everything can be fixed that I see on my plate IF I know which tables to adjust and figure out exactly HOW they need to be adjusted.

Yeah, I've learned a LOT about this tuning stuff. Still a lot more to go, but it doesn't feel as mind bending as it did when I first started looking into it. Of course, it pays to keep in mind that the tuning programs we use are not perfect neither. Bear in mind that those guys (EFILive, HPTuners, etc) are simply trying to reverse engineer the PCM in our cars by looking at the raw code and data trying to figure out what the heck it is doing. Some of the program code is really nothing more than guesswork. This is more voodoo than it is science.

So in effect, don't make your expectations unrealistic. As Mike Carnahan told me, my car is about the worst possible case I could have chosen to learn to tune with. Nothing can be taken for granted since everything has been changed mechanically. So nearly all of the tables in the PCM for a stock car no longer apply to MY engine and will have to possibly be tweaked. But as for being a perfect fast track course to learn a LOT about tuning, there probably couldn't have been a better test bed for me to play with. I HAVE to look at everything and try to understand what it all really means to me. Which, quite honestly, was extremely frustrating and overwhelming when I jumped into this.
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Unread 06-30-2013, 03:13 AM   #22
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I'm thinking that if it runs well on the MAF, I could set it so that the MAF fails at the frequency where the table no longer provides any lookup data. Which is 12000Hz. I know I've seen values higher than that when logging data while in boost, so I'm thinking that if I fail the MAF at 12000Hz, then the fuel tables of the VE table will then take over exclusively, giving me (hopefully) the best combo of MAF tuning and speed density tuning. This is all theory, of course, so it will really depend on how the car FEELS when I drive it. That will ultimately make the decision for me, no matter what the data logging shows.
Well, this sure sounded good in theory.

Been spending time calibrating the MAF and getting the car feeling REALLY good using it. So I'm thinking this is going to be a piece of cake, have the car running mostly from the MAF for air/fuel calibrations, and then when in boost and the MAF runs out of road at 12,000hz, have it flip over to using the VE tables during boost. Basically trying to get the best of both worlds.

Well one small problem with that. Once you fail the MAF, it STAYS failed till you shut the engine management system down. It doesn't get re-enabled again when you drop back out of boost and into the zone that the MAF is comfortable in.

So that pretty much makes it pretty cut and dried for me. I have to go with a Speed Density tune for my car since the MAF cannot handle the airflow that boost from the turbos provides. So all of the tunes and logs I did with the MAF enabled have been just a waste of time. Well, except I did learn some things along the way, of course.

But I could have been a LOT closer to wrapping up this tuning stuff if I hadn't chased this idea down that dead end alley.

Ah well, been getting some rain lately anyway. And looks like more the next few days. So that will give me time to figure out which tune was the last one I did running solely off of the VE tables and I can roll back to that one and figure out where to go with it after another logging run to see where I am at. I don't think I did much with the upper RPM range figuring I would concentrate only on the areas that overlapped with the MAF range and then deal with the boost areas of the VE tables when I had the low and midrange running well.

Heck, I'm going to wear out this new engine just working on the tuning.
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Unread 07-02-2013, 12:32 PM   #23
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Some of the guys over on the EFILive forum are giving me pointers on what appears to be the best way to set up a completely Speed Density tune on my car, since my plan of using the MAF got shot down. One of the guys seems quite familiar with working with boosted engines and said that my fueling was a bit too rich right before going into boost, so it would likely bog down under the right conditions. The only time I experienced anything like that was in high gear at low rpms but I just wrote that off as being the nature of the beast. But it might very well explain the soft throttle response I've noticed at low rpms as well.

Apparently I was also looking at the Power Enrichment tables incorrectly as well. Back in the old days, there used to be a device on carburetors called the accelerator pump. This was used to provide a squirt of raw gasoline into the carburetor upon pressure of the gas pedal being applied. This helped to keep the opening carburetor plate from causing a lean spike which could cause a flat response in acceleration. I assumed that the Power Enrichment tables were the electronic equivalent of this manual accelerator pump of old. Apparently this is not the case. It is simply a method of applying a richer AFR mixture when commanded depending on throttle position. Kind of sounds like the same thing to me, but apparently it is different enough to have thrown me off with what I was trying to do.

What was suggested to me was to simply use the Commanded Fuel vs RPM (Normal) table {B3647} for naturally aspirated fueling, commanding stoich from 20 to 80 kPa, and then from 85 to 100 kPa gradually make the fueling slightly richer (.96 to .86 Lambda). When boost begins to kick in at 105 kPa set up Power Enrichment to enable at 110 kPa using the PE MAP threshold switch {B3613}, and then control PE fueling via the table for PE Modifier Based on RPM {B3618}.

So that's what I have in the new tune that I'm waiting to try out when weather permits.

He also said that the way my timing is being implemented is not optimal neither. It is marginally OK, but using strictly the high octane table doesn't fully compensate for the needs when boost kicks in. Apparently there is also a separate timing table that is best utilized on a boosted engine instead of trying to do this solely with the standard timing tables. So when we get the fueling ironed out, he will help me get the timing optimized.

But, of course, the weather is getting in the way. The drought seems to be over with now, and we've been getting rain every day, but in patches. I'm watching the radar constantly, and even if I'm not getting raid directly overhead, there will be rain all around me. Which, of course, means I can't take the car out. I need to run the rpms up to do adequate data logging all across the rpm spectrum, but I certainly don't want to be putting a lot of power to the rear wheels on wet roads. Heck, I just now walked out to the garage to put the latest tune in, and the sun was shining and the sky looked pretty clear, even though the radar showed rain to the south. I loaded in the tune, and then came out of the garage to feel it starting to rain.

Oh well.... It's that time of year, I guess.
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Unread 07-04-2013, 01:04 PM   #24
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Well, went ahead and put the battery trickle charger on, since it doesn't look like I'm going to be able to take the car out anytime soon with all the rain we are getting. One drive down out road and I'd be scraping mud from the underside of the car for days afterwards.
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Unread 07-06-2013, 04:37 PM   #25
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Actually saw the sun for a short bit yesterday (Friday), so I loaded up the latest tune and took the car out for a short run to try to get some data logging done. Changed the fueling tables for NA and boost, so I tried to get some boost cells filled with data. Unfortunately I used the wrong PID file, so it was sampling at a slower rate than I wanted. But at least it did capture some data.



Yeah, I chickened out holding it at 100 percent throttle going around that bend.

And that stop sign was coming up a LOT quicker than it seems in the video.
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Unread 07-08-2013, 03:26 AM   #26
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I decided I probably should recalibrate the wideband sensor, since I hadn't done that since I originally installed it back in December. Figured that since I'm trying to finish up the calibration of the VE tables, I should make sure the fueling feedback is accurate. All it takes is pressing the calibrate button on the wideband harness for three seconds to recalibrate the sensor. I never did find a satisfactory answer as to whether the sensor can be recalibrated while still in the exhaust pipe if the car sets for a couple of days, so I pulled it out and let it hang in free air when I did the recalibration. No real big deal, but kind of a pain in the butt just to get to the point where I can press that recalibrate button for three seconds.

So, I took the car out again today (Sunday) to get some more logging done. The rains bypassed us today, so the roads were dry and it didn't look like I would get caught in an unexpected downpour. I needed to get some more cells populated in the boost VE table, so the opportunity presented itself when I "needed" to pass a slow moving truck pulling a trailer. The road was wide open in front of him, so I just let it wind out a bit to get the data I was needing anyway.

So I'm looking over the log display, to see how things look, and the spot where I kicked it into boost is kind of interesting, if I'm interpreting things correctly.



First off, "boost" is the condition whereby pressure detected by the MAP sensor in the intake manifold is greater than ambient barometric (atmospheric) pressure. Barometric pressure at sea level is normally 101.3 kPa, 1013 millibars, 29.913 hg, or 14.692 psi, depending on what sort or yardstick you like to use. I did the screen capture above with the indicator on 103 kPa, which is pretty much the beginning of boost kicking in. I was surprised to see that the engine speed was less than 2600 rpm.

BTW, while I am thinking of it, if you ever have a need to swap out your 1 bar MAP sensor with a 2 bar (or higher) sensor, you need to calibrate your new sensor to ambient barometric pressure. Mine is off slightly, because I didn't know to do that when I swapped out mine. But it's showing 101.0 kPa with the engine off, so I don't think it will make much difference being off such a small amount. EFILive has a MAP sensor scaler table {C6301} that you use to dial in the calibration of the replacement sensor.

Also of note is that the boost seems to peak at 156 kPa (around 8 psi), and then drop very slightly, even though engine speed is increasing. There are 10 lb springs in the wastegates, so perhaps 2 lbs are just being lost because of plumbing overhead. It's hard to tell from that pic, but boost goes from 103 kPa to 156 kPa in just under 3 seconds.

The MAF is indicating constantly increasing airflow (MAFFREQ Hz) even past where the boost plateaus, so this is indicating to me that the engine isn't being starved for air with the turbos just not able to keep up. There was some concern that this might happen with the larger cubed 427. I guess I'm going to have to get one of those GoPro cameras one of these days so I can actually watch the wastegates opening up.

But I'm thinking that I could probably go with stiffer springs in those wastegates to raise that boost level a little bit. Those 10 lb springs do seem to top out pretty darn quickly.

Vehicle speed seems to be keeping a 1:1 ratio compared to engine speed, so I'm taking this as a good sign that the clutch isn't slipping, and the engine is pulling hard up till the moment I take my foot off the gas pedal at 5400 rpm. But I definitely can FEEL where the boost hits that plateau at 8 psi and holds there.

AFR is looking pretty good, and there were no knock retards indicated during the entire run, so the timing is apparently OK.

I figure I don't need very many more runs for data logging before I have the fueling where it needs to be via the two VE tables. Once that is straightened away, I'm going to re-enable the fuel trims and just see whether the car drives better with or without them. There is still some slight surging a low rpms when I take my foot off the gas pedal at slower cruising speeds in higher gears.
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Unread 07-08-2013, 02:20 PM   #27
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Been looking at the Hero3 Go Pro cameras myself, Rich! They look like a nice little unit
that seems to have ALL SORTS of applications! I was thinking about
using one to document my "later mid life crisis" crazy moments, but I'm not quite sure
I want to show how crazy I am to others! I would be VERY interested to
hear what you think of them should you get one. It also sounds like you're
creeping up on the tune that you want for the C5Z, and I hope you get there
sooner than later. You seem to be picking up on a lot of information, as well as
being able to digest it and know what to do with it! The WHOLE saga of the
C5Z has been an interesting read, and at times I was really able to feel your
frustration. Hopefully, those days are behind you, and the end of the story is in
sight. Cummon and give us the REAL truth.........! You REALLY don't like to do
those "data logging" runs, do you?
Andy
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Unread 07-08-2013, 03:56 PM   #28
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Honestly, it was fun at the beginning, giving me a good excuse to take the car out and get "frisky" with it, but it's beginning to get old now. I don't normally drive that way. And I know the more times I do it the more I am pressing my luck of whizzing by a random cop encounter and getting in all sorts of trouble. I pick remote areas, where there is very little traffic, but still, there's no predicting just plain old bad luck. I seriously doubt my excuse of doing data logging will convince a cop that it is OK. Having a radar detector would be of no use to me, because with the noise the car makes and just seeing a blue streak going by would leave no doubt that I was exceeding the speed limit. So yeah, the sooner I can wrap this up the better. After all that I went through, I really don't want to have this end with my car getting impounded.

I tried winding the engine out in first and second gears to keep my overall speed down, but that just doesn't seem to kick the turbos into boost as well as the higher gears.

Honestly, I'm ready to be at the point where I can pull the wideband and wiring out of the car and just DRIVE it to enjoy it. Not to mention that pressing down on that gas pedal in third and fourth gear gets me pretty white knuckled. I'm not exactly saying it's real scary, but it certainly commands your undivided attention to the road in front of you and being sensitive to the feel of the car to make sure you don't start going squirrelly. Plus I'm still staying attuned to any strange noises (which thankfully have been absent) in case there are still one or more problems still lurking that I haven't found yet. I don't think there are, but heck, you just never know.
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Unread 07-19-2013, 04:16 AM   #29
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Hit a slight snag the other day.

I had the car out on Wednesday doing some more logging and when I had it in some low level boost trying to get some map cells populated, I noticed a, well, engine "burp" is about the best way to describe it. Never had that before, so it did kind of unnerve me a bit. I thought, "NOW what?" But the car got me back home OK. I actually did another tune and took the car out again, but didn't go into boost, and the car drove OK, but seemed rather rough at idle. And the timing looks a bit squirrelly too. Backing up a little bit, when I loaded that tune (#0027) I was pulling off of the garage apron and noticed that the oil pressure gauge was reading ZERO. Yeah, THAT caught my attention! But then I noticed that all of the gauges were dead. So I pulled back onto the apron and found out that I couldn't get the EFILive box to talk to my PCM. Sheesh.... So I just shut everything down, disconnected the V2 cable and rebooted the PC, and luckily I could then talk to the PCM again. But odd thing is that the gauges wouldn't come back until I reloaded that same tune again.

But the car seemed to run OK after I took it out again, but I didn't run it up into boost at all, which is probably a good thing.

Later on in the evening, I was looking over the log for that run where I had the hiccup, and I noticed something odd right where the hiccup should have been in the log.



Looked like timing advance just gave up and dropped to zero. This appeared to correspond ALMOST with a bump in the engine rpm trace, but not exactly. It seems to lead it a bit. The drop in advance seemed to line up with a slight rise in RPM, and then it dropped down. Then I noticed that the boost reading from the MAP sensor dropped like a rock right after that dip in spark advance. The more I thought about it the more it seemed likely that I had a boost pressure leak suddenly show up. But it is kind of a puzzle why the timing advance drop seemed to precede the boost drop out.

So today (Thursday) I popped the hood and started poking around. First thing I noticed was that it appeared that the airbridge had been rubbing on the underside of the hood again. Then I noticed something was different about the airbridge plumbing.

Here's a pic of the airbridge plumbing right after I got it put together.


And here we have what I noticed today.


That gap showing the aluminum tube between the two clamps was completely gone. And the bottom of the airbridge had come loose completely of the MAF sensor housing.



Sigh......

So I've got the airbridge and MAF sensor pulled out of there now. One thing I did find out is that the reducing coupler between the throttle body and the aluminum tube going to the air bridge is really not rated for boost. Summit's website didn't indicate that and I only found out by going to other sites trying to figure out what the thickness and number of plies are in that coupler. Apparently there are NO plies and it is just simply a single ply of rather flexible silicon. I thought it seemed rather soft when I installed it, and my guess is that it is way TOO soft and it was possibly ballooning out under pressure, pulling on the airbridge. But how that aluminum tube got sucked further into that coupler kind of has me baffled.

And this might even explain why I wasn't able to get over 8 lbs of boost out of those 10 lb wastegate springs.

In any event, I've got a new coupler on order that is supposed to be designed for boost conditions, so I guess the car is dead in the water for a bit waiting for that part to show up. In the meantime I'm going to cut away that part of the MAF housing that is supposed to fit into a notch on a coupler or airbridge so that the airbridge fits more snuggly on that end. I was actually looking for an aluminum MAF body, but couldn't find anything that looked like it would be an easy replacement. I'm not sure if that plastic MAF housing is getting too pliable when it gets hot, and therefore allowing the lower part of the airbridge to slip off of it. Anyway, all of the aftermarket stuff I looked at was either too long, or too wide, or both, which would mean too much fabrication to get it all back in place. So I'll just have to see if what I monkey around with when the new coupler comes in holds up well enough or not.
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Unread 07-23-2013, 04:40 PM   #30
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Yesterday I took the BBK aluminum airbridge out of the storage cabinet and tried again to get that to fit on the car. I was figuring I could eliminate the MAF sensor housing completely and just use a separate IAT sensor. That would give me more room to work with. But the angle of the airbridge is the snag. It pretty much will just go in one place and one place only to align with both the throttle body and the outlet pipe of the intercooler. And where that spot is is directly above the radiator. Which puts it pressing right up against the hood when I close it. I guess the height of this 427 is higher than the stock LS6 and the larger throttle body raised the center line of the throttle body opening too. So both of those changes conspired to make the airbridge just sit too high.

Ideally I should run four inch diameter aluminum or stainless steel tubing from the intercooler to the throttle body, but no way a four inch pipe is going to be able to run between the hood and the radiator support. I would need to either flatten a section of the tubing like an airbridge, or I would have to find a hood that would allow 4 inches of clearance where I need it.

I have read accounts of people cutting and rewelding their radiator cradle to make the piping fit, but that's going beyond my pay grade. Plus they apparently didn't have an intercooler like mine to deal with, so that would throw a whole nother set of wrinkles into it.

Supposedly DeWitts makes a shorter radiator but so far I haven't been able to find out much about it. What hints I have seen seemed to indicate that you still need to drop the radiator cradle a bit to use 4 inch pipe.

So unless I get hit with a miracle of an inspiration, I don't see any alternative to sticking with that plastic airbridge I now have. I guess I just have to check it frequently to make sure it's not working loose from the heat cycles making the plastic go soft and pliable. I will be extremely surprised if the airbridge doesn't just pop apart eventually. If I were smart I would figure out some sort of screen to put on the front of the throttle body to catch any plastic fragments when that happens. But I'm guessing that would be a whole nother level of "pain in the ass" to fabricate.

I got the new coupler I've been waiting on, but I've just been holding off working on the car while thinking about other options. Plus it's just been crappy weather around here anyway, so not like I'm going to take the car out anytime soon anyway. Incentive has been lacking, I suppose.

Oh yeah, I also found out that the Sunoco I was getting my non-ethanol gasoline from apparently dropped the 93 octane and offers 91 octane instead. So I guess I might as well just go with the ethanol contaminated crap and complete the AFR tuning using that. Probably needed to do that anyway. Tuning for non-ethanol gasoline and using ethanol gasoline will have the engine running too lean. So I guess it's better to tune for ethanol and have it run slightly richer with non ethanol gas than the reverse.
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