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Unread 05-02-2009, 12:53 AM   #21
LS2POWA
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Heh ever since I got my 5pt harness installed, quite a few cops around town do a double take seeing me strapped in the seats.

I had my fair share of deadly accidents, I can tell you from that experience the seat belt didnt save my life, the bent steering wheel did. Soon as I lost control I remember just pushing myself into the seat using the wheel, it caused me to break my left arm but it kept me from going through the windshield. Not only that my seat was inchs from the steering wheel so I was pinned in there nice and tight..bruised lung and heart was no fun though.

A lot of people say my new harness setup is a pain and time waster...I just love the feeling of being in a velcro suit attached to the opposite material, my ass isnt going anywhere.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 07:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by LS2POWA View Post
...I had my fair share of deadly accidents, I can tell you from that experience the seat belt didnt save my life, the bent steering wheel did. Soon as I lost control I remember just pushing myself into the seat using the wheel, it caused me to break my left arm but it kept me from going through the windshield. Not only that my seat was inchs from the steering wheel so I was pinned in there nice and tight..bruised lung and heart was no fun though...
So do I understand that you were not belted in during the above crash(es) and that it was the steering wheel and sheer strength that held you in?

Or, were you buckled in AND held on for dear life?

Please clarify for this old fart?
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Unread 05-02-2009, 09:06 AM   #23
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If it saves one life it's a good law
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Unread 05-02-2009, 12:57 PM   #24
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So do I understand that you were not belted in during the above crash(es) and that it was the steering wheel and sheer strength that held you in?

Or, were you buckled in AND held on for dear life?

Please clarify for this old fart?
I was holding on for dear life while buckled in. But the belt didn't lock upon impact which was no beuno but it was a dodge so I'd expect failure from
that car.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 01:02 PM   #25
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I've never been asked before or after for a search when I've been stopped. Every other law enforcement officer I've ever encountered has been courteous and friendly. Earlier that evening as I drove around Dothan, I saw a group of LEO's that pulled over several sporty cars (mustangs, camaros, etc). Later on that evening, I was pulled over by a group of LEO's.

I am as clean cut as they come and my cousin (who is a corrections officer) was in the car with me in uniform. I've never drank, smoked (anything), or done any sort of drugs. What exactly do you think his 'tip off' was? Apparently it was the bright blue corvette with the white stripe and out of state tag. Is it hard to believe he was just an asshole? It had nothing to do with him having any 'tip off', only his being an ass.

Please don't take this as me thinking all cops are assholes. This one I encountered in Dothan was simply that. Other than this guy, any time I've been stopped the officer was cool and easy to get along with.

Have you ever seen auctions run by law enforcement branches? Do you know what forfeiture laws are? Put two and two together......
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Unread 05-02-2009, 01:14 PM   #26
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Although I understand you sentiment, I don't think you'll see any more abuses of it than there may already be. If you're worried about it, install a mini-cam in the car (like some do for the track) and either keep it running or have an instant on switch and switch it on when you see a LEO.

Make sure it's date/timed.

Now that we have the paranoia protection in place don't worry about searches and such. Without PC or a warrant, you're still no more likely to get your car searched than before. Again for the overly paranoid, simply install a big-brother cam and let it run during the stop

The easiest way NOT to get your car searched on a traffic stop, is to simply say NO!

Disregard all the BS they'll try to drop on you, guilt trip you and such, and just stand firm. If there's nothing to hide, even if they bring in a dog, they won't find anything.

Now...For those that disagree with the law, lets look at another side of the coin:



I agree





Ok, here's the problem. Other than our friendships, I generally wouldn't give a great damned what happened to most people!

So why the law? Simple: Cha-Chhing!! $$$$$$

Lets look at some:

The costs involved if you go through the windshield:

1) On scene investigation fatal/Serious bodily injury-Law Enforcement manpower costs.
2) Medical cost (on Scene)
3) Medi-Vac (if required) or general medical transport.
4) ER visit
5) Hospital stay and the associated costs therein.
6) Doctors bill
7) Physical Thereapy
8) Assisted living facility or home nursing care.
9) Coroner costs (if the above were not required)
10) Burial expense/Cremation.
11) Loss of income to your family
12) Increased insurance premiums across the board to make up for the losses.

If you have great insurance, most of the above won't impact you so much other than your deductibles and increased insurance costs. Of course, if your insurance is substandard, sooner rather than later, you or your loved ones will be out of pocket for costs

Unlike years past, hospitals can and do come after you for the overdue medical bills.

Costs to others:

You loose control (because you aren't buckled in and can't CYA and hang on to the steering wheel at the same time!) and hit/injure or kill someone else

Aside from potential criminal issues, that's going to get very expensive to a lot of people, real quickly!

If you have no insurance or your insurance really sucks....You may end up on the indigent care list so the government gets to foot you bills. Ok for you, sucks for the rest of us!

And of course, along with the potential for job/income loss, with HUGE medical bills comes the potential for bankruptcy and loss of your home, property, and "things."

See, when you file bankruptcy, a lot of other bills, not associated with this mess, will likely get swept up in the filing. This way, everyone gets to share in your loss!!

The economy is bad enough as is. Lets not do things to help it get worse!!

And finally, on the economic front, look at the articles on the matter. It was started in ine the other day that the feds were threatening to pull aorud 30 billion or had another 30+ billion for the state, if the laws were enacted. Even Charlie couldn't turn that much money down!

As for the motorcyclist, being one I see both sides. That said, the measly 10k they're required to have to ride helmet less is a joke and whoever thought that crap up, needs to be drug down the road by their cojones!!

It's difficult enough to survive a bike crash (BTDT too) without having one of the least protected and most critical parts of your body, take the "hit" if you will.

See, it's not all about "ME", it's more about the impact of my decisions on everyone else!

Aside from $$$ lets look at another issue.

Ever been in an out of control car? I have. Both belted and unbelted!!

Unbelted I took out part of a widshield and bent the steering wheel of a 1969 Camaro in an almost head on crash on I-4 with a DUI driver! I probably should not be here now.

Also slid out from under the steering whee and into the passenger side (bench seat) of a 71 Super Bee on a turn. Had to pull myself back under the wheel just to see where I was going (there's more to it this but I'll save it for comic relief night).

And I've bounced around the inside of a couple of patrol cars as well. Funny the crap you hit while airborne!
And yes, I've crashed a police motorcycle at speed. The helmet looked like crap afterward, but it did it's job!

On the flip side (no pun intended), I've crashed at high speed and been held in place.

I've taught police tactical (pursuit) driving and hung those thight corners at reduiculous speeds....and been in TOTAL CONTROL of the vehicle because of the seatbelt.

And when dealing with a bad situation, rapid manuever, hi-speed pursuits, and such, it's nice not to have to hang on to the damend wheel while splitting your attention between driving, other drivers, ther perp and your but staying behind the wheel where it belongs!!!

So for the high performance enthusiast out here, it only makes sense to wear them based upon what and where we drive



Me either, but as Ron White says: "You can't fix stupid!"

He's right...so now we're trying to legislate it
Freedom of choice is not necessarily "stupid". It's freedom to choose, whether correct or not, based on what someone else may believe is stupid.

As for being involved in accidents as part of a career choice, well in such a case perhaps it would be best to have the JOB require the use of seat belts, when prudent, based on that likelihood.

As for the collateral damage and expenses caused by an accident, that could be very expensive for the party causing the accident, well, that is part of the risk a person takes in making their own decisions about how they drive and how they choose to protect themselves if such a situation should arise. Someone being sued because of their poor choice of action is not an unusual situation in the legal system, and certainly would be every bit as much incentive to NOT engage in such actions as putting a law in place that creates any penalty for a driver who chooses to not do what the law says he or she must, with or without and damages resulting from that choice.

In my opinion a law that states that you MUST wear a seat belt because you MIGHT get involved in an accident and it MIGHT save you and others from damage and expense is every bit as bad as laws that state that you cannot have this or that firearm because you MIGHT just use it in an illegal manner. It is basically a presumption of guilt before the crime or incident takes place, if ever.

You can't put rubber baby buggy bumpers on the entire world. And the government certainly cannot try to legislate those bumpers into place.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 05:08 PM   #27
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Freedom of choice is not necessarily "stupid". It's freedom to choose, whether correct or not, based on what someone else may believe is stupid.

As for being involved in accidents as part of a career choice, well in such a case perhaps it would be best to have the JOB require the use of seat belts, when prudent, based on that likelihood.

As for the collateral damage and expenses caused by an accident, that could be very expensive for the party causing the accident, well, that is part of the risk a person takes in making their own decisions about how they drive and how they choose to protect themselves if such a situation should arise. Someone being sued because of their poor choice of action is not an unusual situation in the legal system, and certainly would be every bit as much incentive to NOT engage in such actions as putting a law in place that creates any penalty for a driver who chooses to not do what the law says he or she must, with or without and damages resulting from that choice.

In my opinion a law that states that you MUST wear a seat belt because you MIGHT get involved in an accident and it MIGHT save you and others from damage and expense is every bit as bad as laws that state that you cannot have this or that firearm because you MIGHT just use it in an illegal manner. It is basically a presumption of guilt before the crime or incident takes place, if ever.

You can't put rubber baby buggy bumpers on the entire world. And the government certainly cannot try to legislate those bumpers into place.
Well, yes they canAt least as it pertains to driving and traffic laws.
Don't misunderstand, I think many of our traffic laws are ludicrous. Pure BS for the purpose of generating revenue!!There were some that I simply refused to enforce! Blissfull ignorance is...well...blissfullI just chose to be ignorant.

But I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with some of your observations.

Although I agree with you on the freedom to choose, there are a few instances where I have to rethink the position.

1st-fair is fair!
If we're going to allow motorcyclist to carry piss poor insurance amounts for the "option" to ride helmetless, then I think we should do the same for auto owners and seatbelts.
Then again, I believe that when you're out of the 10k mandated medical, you're either out of pocket or out of luck!

Tough love?
Maybe, but I'm tired of paying higher premiums for someone elses poor "choices."

Obviously this position in rediculous!

It still costs the TAXPAYER millions in lost revenue to help put humpty back together again after they fall off the freaking wall!

If I wasn't having to pay for this poor decision, then I probably wouldn't care.

So to that end, yes, that "choice" is a stupid choice.(yes,IMO)

And I don't much care for more government intervention in our private lives, but driving is a privelidge not a right and the government has the right to impose restrictions for that right!

If we don't like those restrictions, then I suggest we as a community, start fighhting those rules and regulations now and continue on a regular basis. It took decades for the motorcycle community to change the helmet laws, but they managed to do it.

They started with protests and rallys. Those were pretty much worthless.

Then they wised up, started dressing up, buying mouthpieces (lobbyist) and providing facts rather than just whining about the law.

Funny how well those changes worked out for the bikers.

As for the matter of job choice and crashes, it certainly makes an interesting observation.

I accepted the fact that I might be involved in a high speed crash on duty and new this every time I turned the ignition. Same holds true for gunfights, barfights and every other possible outcome while on duty. It's a known risk.
Yes, it truly is a job "choice" but I always try to hedge my bets

Although Florida statute provides exemptions for traffic law "violations" for law enforcement while in the performance of thier duties, most departments now require the use of belts. The INSURANCE INDUSTRY has been the chief cause of this. Although it's ok to go unbelted, get hurt in a crash and watch your benefits go
At the very least, you'll probably have to fight for them!! So why not just wear them to start with and God forbid you're injured in a crash, you'll get the benefits you deserve!

Besides, the general public is less bitchy when you stroke them a ticket when they see you wearing yours as well

I saw a deputy the other day, on the phone, no seat belt, and tailgaiting the car in front of himTalk about a bad example?

As for the collateral damage argument, I don't quite understand your position? But the threat (or thought) of a lawsuit by those outside the civil or criminal justice system, is usually a non-issue. Most people don't even think about civil liability. When or if they do, they think their insurance company is going to take care of them It's just not something that those outside the system think about.

Using that as an alternative for traffic laws iscertainly not a valid argument.

Like I said, I like the ability to choose and yes, I'd take the opportunity to choose to be careless; but only if we could guarantee that the taxpayer will not be held liable for everyone elses actions.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 06:06 PM   #28
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And I don't much care for more government intervention in our private lives, but driving is a privelidge not a right and the government has the right to impose restrictions for that right!
Now, that is an interesting statement right there....

Just how did the government swindle us into accepting that fallacy as a fact?

The roads are built and maintained with public funds taken from the public as taxes and fees. They are considered as PUBLIC roadways. Being's as the only true utility of such PUBLIC roadways is via driving vehicles upon them, then why do we not have the RIGHT to use that for which we have paid for?

Yeah, I'm feeling cranky lately. Getting tired of all the BS the government is trying to shovel down our throats while they stick the iron claw into our pockets to be taking ever increasing chunks of my money and pieces of my butt if I don't move fast enough to avoid the claws. Getting REAL tired of being treated like tax cattle to be used and abused as needed and squeezed harder because they want to spend more and more of the money they don't have with no real controls nor oversight from "the people".
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Unread 05-02-2009, 07:19 PM   #29
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I was holding on for dear life while buckled in. But the belt didn't lock upon impact which was no beuno but it was a dodge so I'd expect failure from
that car.
I wasn't aware that Chrysler had a problem with them. I know that some of the F-bodies had seatbelt retractor issues and there was a recall on certain years. We handled a few of those cases.

Learned something new today

I'll bet that even though the shoulder belt failed to lock in, the lap belt held your arse in the seat!
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Unread 05-03-2009, 03:19 AM   #30
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The roads are built and maintained with public funds taken from the public as taxes and fees. They are considered as PUBLIC roadways. Being's as the only true utility of such PUBLIC roadways is via driving vehicles upon them, then why do we not have the RIGHT to use that for which we have paid for?
Exactly. The "driving is a privilege and not a right" praise agitates me to death. People who actually believe that really need to go back to watching veterans so that they don't become terrorists.
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