Here's A Good Topic For Ray's Ranting Room

[als2052]

1. Why are we in Iran?

2. Why are we in Afghanistan?

3. Why are we getting ready to do same in Iran?

4. What did we accomplish in Vietman?

5. What are we doing in Pakistan?

6. Why are we not taking care of ouselves first?

Everyone's .02 welcomed...

[Kap142]

OK this ought to help stir the poo very effectively.

Are any of the above causing/helping to cause: 1) unemployment, 2)high fuel prices (or are the reigning republicans simply making lots of money too), 3) the credit card crunch, 4) the disheveled housing market and oh heck where does one start the list?

Another thought. Regardless of what you think of the last adminstration, that politician left office with a balanced budget. Strange concept, you can't spend more then you take in and now your great, great, great grand children would still be paying the present debt even if every penny going over there stopped right now

The sobering thought is that no one on the horizon is worth a poo to fix/change the situation which, strangly enough, seems to be getting worse.

[Shadow]

Been asking myself the same questions?

Our initial objected (stated) was to find OBL and his Al Queida mafia and put them out of business. Actually, numbnuts actually stated he was going to "end terrorism"....right Good luck on that one.

Our goals have been so blurred over the past 6 years, that I'm not really sure what the hell we're trying to accomplish?

Peace in the Middle East? - Ain't gonna happen. Never has and never will. Philosophical and religious differences will prevent this from happening.

Stopping Terrorism? - Ain't gonna happen! If you can stop terror, you can end crime. Neither can truly be accomplished. You can route it, slow it down and defer it, but you can't STOP it

Install (Enforce) Democracy? - Again, good luck. The effort to install a free and democratic society is gaining momentum or failing miserably, dependant upon whom you speak with and what you hear or read.

Military websites, journals, blogs, radio, political administration officials and supporters and some who are benefitting in one way or another from the mess, et al indicate we're "winning."

NPR type facilities, the yellow press, anti- bush folks and the like say we're failing.

I tend to listen to both side, look as many facts and facets as possible, and form my own conclusions. Those of us that are more open minded, have no financial or personal interest in the matter, seem to see things for what they are, not what we want them to be.

My conclusion in that regard is, we're treading water. Sure we're making some headway, but unfortunately, within 5-10 years of the final troop withdrawl (unless a presence is maintained in the area by NATO or coalition forces-which means we're still in conflict), the region will be right back where it was or worse Unless they (the indigenous people or the various regions) are willing, able and equipped to defend themselves, the "bullies" will just come back when the "good guys" are gone.

One report yesterday from a local Iraqi, stated they (locals) were busy trying to stay alive, avoid suicide bombers, attacks, snipers, kidnappings, etc., and blamed the US for thier problem. It's sort of like this. Even under a bad regieme, at least you know who the players are and where you stand

I have friends serving and working in Iraq, Afghanistan, and "other areas" of the Middle East. To them, I wish them God's speed and a safe return.

To the administration, I wish they'd hurry up and get the hell out so we can try something else!

Like KAP said, there's really not much running thats worth a tinkers dam, but if they can put an end to this nonsense and maybe the IRS at the same time, Hell! I'd even vote for Billery
Oh well, there's my buck 2-50 worth.

[ynkedad]

Iraq...
This war was started back in the day of papa Bush and we had the support of many many other Nations. This war was prematurely ended because a lot of the supporting Nations as well as others felt it was the right thing to do.
If we had finished the war then, we may not have Had to return with Bush Jr.
.............................
Clinton's Administration allowed Iraq to break a lot of the Resolutions of the Treaty that was agreed to by Iraq. Subsequently NOTHING was done to Saddam or his Regime to keep them in check or to enforce these Resolutions. All the while, the atrocities Saddam and his Regime continued to inflict on his people kept getting worse every day.

So, Although our economy was doing well under his leadership, Clinton's Look the other way and Let's talk and talk and talk Philosophy allowed this and other Global issues to get out of hand, where as someone was going to have to clean up the mess (Global Issues) eventually.
..............................
WAR and BLURRED GOALS:
You Can't fight a war where the media has the access it has.

NTM we Americans should NEVER have entered this war or EVER again enter a War, Where its Policy or its path and or outcome is dictated to us by International opinion or influences (NATO). It's like fighting with one hand tied behind your back. Talk about Indecision!!!

But honestly...what were we supposed to do sit idly by while Saddam butchered his people, became more powerful etc. etc? sounds like a Hitler to me.
................................

Vietnam:
What did we accomplish?...We showed the world what a Cluster Phuck Really looks like!
NTM.. we gave the Russians a show (Comedy/Drama) as we let the Russians fight us Vicariously thru the Vietnamese by supplying them with weapons etc. during the Cold War.

IMO...There was NO international threat, and we had absolutely Nothing to gain from it, thus we should not have been there in a Military Capacity.

We had our Civil War let them have theirs...who are we to stop them?

JAN... I Have nothing but Respect for our Troops both past and present. So if I sounded disrespectful in any way (toward the troops) it was unintentional, and I'm sorry. My problem is with our leadership then and Now.

Again, This is just My Humble Opinion and I kept it as brief as possible.

[ynkedad]

Originally Posted by als2052

3. Why are we getting ready to do same in Iran?
6. Why are we not taking care of ourselves first?

Iran:
You don't think they're a threat or have been a threat to us or our Allies abroad?
I say we should let some other Country take the lead on Iran and we should sit on the sidelines. Is that a Reality?.. I don't think so.
........................
Why are we not taking care of Ourselves first?:

That is a question I ask frequently as well!!!
I have a few Ideas as to why we're Not, but it's hard for me to try to convey my view without writing a book on the subject!

[Rich Z]

Just out of curiosity, if China thought our country was being run badly or not in their best interests and they sent troops HERE, how would WE feel about that situation? Based on the huge growing trade deficit between the USA and them, they might actually have a justifiable reason for doing just exactly that......

[Shadow]

Iran:
You don't think they're a threat or have been a threat to us or our Allies abroad?
I say we should let some other Country take the lead on Iran and we should sit on the sidelines. Is that a Reality?.. I don't think so.

Sure they're a threat to both; however, it's time the neighboring nations and citizens of theier own country take a postitive and premptive role...first

Basically, the Saudi's have "allowed" us (the US) to "use" thier bases for premptive strikes, air mobility and superiority. That said, they used to place caveats on our use pretty regularly. As well, they and others (Kuwait, etc) usually take a secondary (or further back) role in the battles that concern them and let us (the US) and NATO do the dirty work

I had the pleasure/honor to sit with 2 military vets today at lunch. They both seemed to agree that this thing will not end well (because we had no real strategy to get out going in) and unless the indigs are willing to put up or shut up, the place will fall again in a year (+/-).

One of them made an intersting observation regarding Desert Storm and the reason we didn't push further into Iraq. Daddy Bush knew that, "if we brake it we've own it."

Jr. Hadn't figured that one when the crapola hit the wind machine, thus, we broke it, and now, we own it.

Troop pull out? Not gonna happen We'll always have bases/a presence in the region

At least Billy left office with a smile on his face and a balanced budget

[ynkedad]

Originally Posted by Shadow

Sure they're a threat to both; however, it's time the neighboring nations and citizens of theier own country take a postitive and premptive role...first:thumbsup

That's what I'd like to see, but without an outside influence Nothing Short of a Civil War is going to fix their issues. And I'm not even sure that'll help.

NTM which neighboring Countries are you suggesting lead this Positive and Premptive role?...They're all into their own agendas and/or are too scared to do anything without Our Help.. IMO.

Originally Posted by Shadow

As well, they and others (Kuwait, etc) usually take a secondary (or further back) role in the battles that concern them and let us (the US) and NATO do the dirty work

Nothing new there.
That's the biotch about being a Super power.

Originally Posted by Shadow

One of them made an intersting observation regarding Desert Storm and the reason we didn't push further into Iraq. Daddy Bush knew that, "if we brake it we've own it."
Jr. Hadn't figured that one when the crapola hit the wind machine, thus, we broke it, and now, we own it.

Hell, I knew that!
Like I said earlier, If we had done it right the first time, when we had EVERYONE'S blessing, then EVERYONE would "own It"...Not just us and a few others.
Come on now...Why should we have trusted Saddam to abide by the resolutions after the first war? Hell, he was breaking the rules long before the first war to the point of Sanctions being applied, and Even then he broke the rules and undermined NATO.

Originally Posted by Shadow

Troop pull out? Not gonna happen We'll always have bases/a presence in the region

It's been that way since WWII with the exception of Vietnam I do believe.

Originally Posted by Shadow

At least Billy left office with a smile on his face and a balanced budget

At what cost.. 911?!!!
Sure the budget was balancing out, but while he was Busy balancing the budget, and with Monica on his brain , America got Complacent and Terrorists were scheming away...
Long before Bush Jr's. term in office I might add. Then what..9 months after Bush became President 911 happened, followed shortly thereafter with war with Iraq and Ka Blammm...the Budget is in the toilet AGAIN!

That being said...Who's to blame for our current situation with Iraq and the Budget????


JAN...I DON'T agree with everything Bush Jr. has done, but I do believe Saddam needed to be replaced LONG before his Presidency. So It fell into the lap of Bush Jr and he put his foot down.

Clinton damn sure wasn't going to do anything...He had a distraction!
It's a shame though...How many that were murdered over there, during his term that is.

[Rich Z]

Doesn't anyone remember Clinton GUTTING the military while he was in office? I remember stories of all kinds of military bases being closed down. He was a VERY anti-military president. How do you think that appeared to the rest of the world? Anyone think maybe someone would try to take advantage of that?

I'm surprised we haven't been more overtly attacked recently. With our military forces spread so thinly across the world, there really isn't much force here on our own shores to do much. Heck, if the jokers in Washington succeed in disarming the citizenry of the USA, we'll be sitting ducks.....

[Shadow]

Thats not just the Clinton administration. Even this administration has neutered the military while at war Base closings, cutbacks, lengthened deployments.....the list goes on......

We really need a change. I just don't see much on the horizon, but who knows?

You boys battle this one out amonsg yourselves. I'm going to go have a beer