What Happens if the not so Big-Three-Fail

[Rich Z]

Well, when push comes to shove, where does the Constitution even grant the government the power to get involved in such things? This is exactly the sort of thing that the founders of the Constitution did NOT want the government to gain control over.

How come Communism was so bad until our own government begins to become the same way?

[thebeepster]

Agree w/ everything that's been said here about the unions, but America differs from the rest of the world in one important aspect: CORPORATE GREED.

Having spent the majority of my working life in Corporate America, I have witnessed this first hand in many instances.

Much of the problem we see today is a product of excessive executive salaries, bonuses, company cars, golden parachutes...yada, yada, yada. While I agree that most unions have outlived their usefullness, we must be reminded that if were not for the work of trade unions over the years, us poor working slobs would have been working for poverty wages while the fat cats (at the top) would have perpetuated their lavish lifestyles.

I will always remember as a young man (with growing family) I was once asked to take a pay cut (in the spirit of being a team player) by an individual who was making about 10 times my annual salary.

Like many, I have seen my financial assets shrink substantially over the past 90 days but the fund managers on Wall Street continue to receive their salaries and bonuses in the million$. It seems we are overdue for an attitude adjustment

[Harbor Master]

Do any of the people who have placed quotes in this thread actually know the hourly wages of GM union employees? Do any of you know for a fact what the cost is per employee for their benefit package? Do any of you know what the actual labor costs are for assembling a car, or for that matter what the labor cost is to make those parts? I will stand my ground and say there is a whole hell of a lot more to the equation than union wages and benefits. My friends who work in GM factories have taken concessions time and time again. Their retirement benefits have been reduced, and stand to be reduced again. Their numbers have been reduced by half through automation and out sourcing. So when you look for who to blame for the big threes current condition don't let your hatred for unions and what they stand for blind you to all the facts. Don't let your jealousy for their wages that they fought for blind you of the corporate greed. I will not be drawn into a argument over this subject. If you wish to discuss it intelligently so be it.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by thebeepster

...I will always remember as a young man (with growing family) I was once asked to take a pay cut (in the spirit of being a team player) by an individual who was making about 10 times my annual salary....It seems we are overdue for an attitude adjustment

Here's one for you...and we're not union.....

I charged a client (an insurance company defense firm) $50.00 to serve documents in Polk, Highland and Hardee counties. Remember, were in Tampa (west side) and have to pick up and prepare/coordinate the service in those counties.

They got the bill and called my attorney client. They asked them to either get me to lower the price or find another server for Polk County!! Said they felt the price was too high

But see, they are adjusters.

They never leave thier towers, and they also (from what I'm told) receive bonuses for saving the company money.

I wanted to call the lady and tell her that I thought my isuurance rates were too high and ask if they lower them a bit?

Then again, there's this thing I like to do....eat!

Discretion is the better part of valor.....

[floridaZ]

I think I remember reading/hearing $68 an hour for wages and benefits per worker (average). There were a few cents over $68, but I'm getting too old to remember that ish.

However, since I can't remember the source, I can't vouch for it's accuracy. This thread is the first I've seen $80 thrown up, but considering the average... it's possible. I think the point they are making is that Honda and Subaru make a better car of better quality, paying the workers $40 something. I don't claim to know what the production costs are per car, but looking at a new Cadillac's paint or a new Chevy's interior... I'd believe that they cost less to make than a Civic or an STi even.

Now that said, I'm not too worried about the economy much anymore. Once the bubble popped, I lost about $5,000 in the stocks so I sold them. Being 18; I haven't had time to get too many taxes assigned to me; so after payroll taxes, car insurance, and gas; I don't have too much to pay for. So I look on the overall bright side, that gas is $1.61 a gallon, which is cheaper than what it was when I started (legally) driving.

Everything else sucks, though.

[Guro305]

Originally Posted by Harbor Master

Do any of the people who have placed quotes in this thread actually know the hourly wages of GM union employees? Do any of you know for a fact what the cost is per employee for their benefit package? Do any of you know what the actual labor costs are for assembling a car, or for that matter what the labor cost is to make those parts? I will stand my ground and say there is a whole hell of a lot more to the equation than union wages and benefits. My friends who work in GM factories have taken concessions time and time again. Their retirement benefits have been reduced, and stand to be reduced again. Their numbers have been reduced by half through automation and out sourcing. So when you look for who to blame for the big threes current condition don't let your hatred for unions and what they stand for blind you to all the facts. Don't let your jealousy for their wages that they fought for blind you of the corporate greed. I will not be drawn into a argument over this subject. If you wish to discuss it intelligently so be it.

Great! At least they have those things. Most of us don't have the luxury and yeah, it's $68+ an hour but wait, I said that and so did FloridaZ.

Yeah, I do blame the unions. They don't protect anyone but themselves and they sell out to "corporate greed" just as much as everyone else. I had this happen to me at an old job when the CWA sold us up the river and left us for dead like the sellout cowards they were. I have more knowledge in my pinky finger being a network technician and engineer then most of those schmucks moving hoods onto the assembly line and unlike them I had to goto school to learn my trade and make twenty percent what they do so no, I don't feel sorry for them at all.

Like Shadow said, I guess if the auto industry decided to ditch the unions, pay the autoworkers a reasonable salary and benefits, there would still be lines of men and women applying for the job. I totally agree. FloridaZ, comparing the interior of a Caddy to a piece of s#!t Honda or Suburu? Come on man, we have to agree to disagree there. New Caddies are sweet as can be. I see them at the Breakers Hotel where my wife works and saw lots of them at the Barrett Jackson show. They are top-notch. Chevys however traditionally have always been a little lax on the interior though. I agree with you there.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Harbor Master

Do any of the people who have placed quotes in this thread actually know the hourly wages of GM union employees? Do any of you know for a fact what the cost is per employee for their benefit package? Do any of you know what the actual labor costs are for assembling a car, or for that matter what the labor cost is to make those parts? I will stand my ground and say there is a whole hell of a lot more to the equation than union wages and benefits. My friends who work in GM factories have taken concessions time and time again. Their retirement benefits have been reduced, and stand to be reduced again. Their numbers have been reduced by half through automation and out sourcing. So when you look for who to blame for the big threes current condition don't let your hatred for unions and what they stand for blind you to all the facts. Don't let your jealousy for their wages that they fought for blind you of the corporate greed. I will not be drawn into a argument over this subject. If you wish to discuss it intelligently so be it.

Only what I've been told by friends and co-workers who either have worked in that industry or have friends that do.
That said, cost per employee for benefits is likely high. It is in every business where bene's are paid. It's one of the costs of doing business that plagues most businesses!
Then again, the actual cost per employee could be reduced, even temporarily by a reduction in some of the extemporaneous benes that the unions have demanded.
I have friends that retired from the big 3. They make more in retirement that I did as a full time LEO!
I don't begrudge them that, but explain the rationale? Then again, I have friends from NYPD and such that also made more in retirement that I did working. I know, cost of living, yada yada yada.....they live in FLORIDA!

Apparently though, more than a couple here DO know the actual hourly rate of a union assembly line worker

As well, the actual cost of assembling one of these cars is based on the cost and benefit package of the employee doing so. Goes right back to how much is paid per hour, etc. Reduce the hourly and you get a reduction in assembly cost

Making parts? No, I don't work in that field; however, when it costs multi-millions for "R & D" and "tooling" somethings wrong
Again, it goes back to reason.

Their numbers have been reduced by half through automation and out sourcing. So when you look for who to blame for the big threes current condition don't let your hatred for unions and what they stand for blind you to all the facts. Don't let your jealousy for their wages that they fought for blind you of the corporate greed. I will not be drawn into a argument over this subject. If you wish to discuss it intelligently so be it

I'm sorry they've had thier numbers reduced. Unfortunately, that's progress. Without that automation, the end product would be even more expensive to produce, take longer to reach the market and likely have even more flaws in it simply due to human error. Change is inevitable. The industry has to be able to accomodate it. I'm sure that at least some of those people whose jobs were reduced to a machine, were trained in running that maching (they don't run themselves) and are still employed at the same or better salaries than before, doing substantially less work.
Besides, where were the unions kicking and screaming when the big 3 wanted to automate or outsource? Why not a big "the sky is falling" plea then? Haven't heard a word over the years from them.

I hate outsourcing. But until our government does something to put a tournequet on that wound, it will continue to be a problem

In tough economic times, concessions have to be made. Government will eventually figure this out or we'll all be learning and speaking Chineese one day!

Finally, I have no "hatred" toward unions or the employees.

But as a rationale, I'd like to think "reasonably intelligent" and well versed individual who has seen what the unions are capable of, I think they have, at least for now, and unless or until the government and/or private corporations prove themselves unworthy or unwilling, outlived thier usefulness.

Employee salaries? I'm not jealous nor angry over them. I'm all for a living wage and above if you can get it. But again, look at the job, the risk, the training, education and/or skill needed to do the job and compare it to, lets say a teacher, a cop/fireman or soldier.

All either require advanced education/training and all (including the teachers today) take extrme risks on an almost daily basis, all for chicken scratch with minor exceptions for some cities and counties

Explain that to me please?


"fighting" for your pay and benefits, regardless of the occupation, is justified. Greed IMO, is not.

Rational thought and common sense simply must prevail in these times if we really want a tomorrow for our kids and grandkids

You're move sir

Hows that for discussing it intelligently?

[Harbor Master]

I will be adding another topic to my DO NOT DEBATE LIST. This by no means is an indication that I give in to your rhetoric. Your mind is set and will not be changed. Your opinions are a part of your southern culture and you will not sway. So I say in closing this discussion, when will it come, when will we see it , when will we be able to share in the wealth of our great country? We send our jobs, our industry, our technology, our money to foreign countries. For what I ask. So the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, and the middle class shrinks and loses ground.

It has been said by the Chinese that they will rule the world without firing a shot. How true this is becoming. They supply us more and more of our needs by the day while our factories and foundries close.

And from this who is benefiting. It is not the American worker, or the people looking for decent paying jobs. It is not the Chinese worker, working for the Waldon family for one dollar a day. We all know who is benefiting and getting wealthier and creating a society of the haves and the have-nots.

With all do respect,
HUTCH

[LS2POWA]

Originally Posted by Harbor Master

I will be adding another topic to my DO NOT DEBATE LIST. This by no means is an indication that I give in to your rhetoric. Your mind is set and will not be changed. Your opinions are a part of your southern culture and you will not sway. So I say in closing this discussion, when will it come, when will we see it , when will we be able to share in the wealth of our great country? We send our jobs, our industry, our technology, our money to foreign countries. For what I ask. So the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, and the middle class shrinks and loses ground.

It has been said by the Chinese that they will rule the world without firing a shot. How true this is becoming. They supply us more and more of our needs by the day while our factories and foundries close.

With all do respect,
HUTCH

I look at that as an insult. I could flip that and say your blind to your own living because you deal with unions up there. My uncle works directly under James Hoffa. I hear all about it(union/teamster) so dont sit there and tell me my southern ways dont know **** or im blind to the matter. My uncle was a LEO then went to work at tropicana then had Mr. Hoffa himself offer the job to watch over certain events.

The way I see it, we who dont work in unions are able to see both sides of the fence. People who do work unions who know their benefits are going to defend them, because I can see some of these autoworkers who lavish in new stuff now having to become middle class like majority of america...oh noes.

If youre making 60 dollars an hour to apply a few parts to a car for a day and sit on your ass 80% of the day and asked if you would be willing to work for a still good 25 an hour with full benefits, you seriously think someones gonna say yeah sure. Thats why our jobs are going over to China. Thats why these companies and unions need to modernize. This country is failing and the big people arent doing anything to help so I say to hell with them.

To add to it, I finally got a call back from GM about a complaint I submitted about a local dealer screwing me over 3x. At the end of the conversation, when nothing could be done they asked if I would buy another GM. I told them Id rather line the pockets of a company who knows how to manage a company. They screwed the pooch to many times.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Harbor Master

I will be adding another topic to my DO NOT DEBATE LIST. This by no means is an indication that I give in to your rhetoric. Your mind is set and will not be changed. Your opinions are a part of your southern culture and you will not sway. So I say in closing this discussion, when will it come, when will we see it , when will we be able to share in the wealth of our great country? We send our jobs, our industry, our technology, our money to foreign countries. For what I ask. So the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, and the middle class shrinks and loses ground.

It has been said by the Chinese that they will rule the world without firing a shot. How true this is becoming. They supply us more and more of our needs by the day while our factories and foundries close.

And from this who is benefiting. It is not the American worker, or the people looking for decent paying jobs. It is not the Chinese worker, working for the Waldon family for one dollar a day. We all know who is benefiting and getting wealthier and creating a society of the haves and the have-nots.

With all do respect,
HUTCH

Hutch,

The choice to debate is yours. People are going to have differences of opinion. If not, the world would be boring as hell and nothing would ever get done.

Personally I would prefer you not speak "down" to me and refer to my "southern heritage" as a negative thing

Yes. I am born and bred in the South. I have left here only on vacations and when the military or law enforcement decided I needed to go elsewhere

As well, I have many many friends from (or currently in) the Northern states, including many right here on this website As you may have noticed there are also numerous members here that were previously of northern residency Where you're from should make no difference and the statements of many here are voiced by former (or current) "northerners" as well.

Besides, as we've proven time and time again, stupid easily crosses geographic borders.

I wouldn't come to your house and insult your family. Please don't come here and insult mine

As for the debate, unless one is unable or unwilling to reason, think independently or make a sound decision based upon fact and logic, discussions such as these can be carried on regardless of location.

In case you haven't noticed, many of the automotive parts are already manufactured elsewhere and merely assembled in the US. As well, we have plants in Canada and Mexico among other places. I personally feel the government, if it wishes to interviene in something, should interviene in the outsourcing of jobs!


And if memory serves me right, this:

It has been said by the Chinese that they will rule the world without firing a shot.

Was actually said by Nakita Kruschev back in his day in Russia the old USSR.

Take care..."Ya'll":wavey: