Carless driving ticket for acclerating to fast??

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by 85vette

All I can say is take it to court. I'd like to see how this one turns out. But, as others have said, get a lawyer or be prepared to pay up to $500.00 in court cost, plus the original fine. I imagine the cost will be about the same either way.

[Shadow]

Actually when the dealerships put on the Tech2 on the diagnostic port on your car in order to diagnose problems, that is EXACTLY what they do. They take the car out on public roads for a test drive. This is not anything unusual or abnormal at all. I mean, how else would you do it? If you come in to a dealership claiming you have a miss or stumble during acceleration, how else would they diagnose the problem?

A dynomometer is an interesting tool

Every time I have had something fixed on any of my vehicles or modifications done, I fully believe that my car was afterwards taken out on public roads for a "test drive". Which was to do what? And whether the tech used the Tech 2, HPtuners, EFIlive or their own experience base to try to diagnose a problem, the methodology and the public roads used during the exercise were the same. Hell, I've used HPtuners to track down an intermittent problem with my MAF and IAT sensors. And yes it was done on public roads and NO I was not violating any laws at the time I was doing the troubleshooting. Actually there really is no other way in order to do that sort of troubleshooting.

Maybe you were, maybe you wern't, but it would be a matter of interpretation.

I fully understand what you're saying and I know full well that this is exactly what takes place most of the time. What I'm saying is there is no provision in Florida Statute for the "testing" of a vehicle on a public road...period.

If...and I say "IF" the OP was merely moving forward at a "normal" rate of speed, say with other traffic, then it wouldn't draw attention. "If" the intermittant miss or stumble was during accelleration, then take it to an on ramp to an interstate and test it there

I'm not saying the OP was wrong just that what he describes leaves too much room for "interpretation" on the part of the LEO on scene. Without video documentation, it's your word against his/hers.

...So why would someone using any sort of tuner be considered as de facto evidence of wrong doing?
__________________

It's not and I'm sure the magistrate would see that. If not, then it needs to be brought out. But the fact still remains that a lot of street racers keep laptops and other "diagnostic equipment" in thier cars when preparing for or during a race. Thats a given that even a first year LEO knows

[Rich Z]

Originally Posted by Shadow

A dynomometer is an interesting tool

So tell me, how many new car dealerships do you know of that have dynos in their shop?

So take your car to a dealership and tell them you have a hesitation upon acceleration and then tell me how they try to diagnose the problem.

Originally Posted by Shadow

I fully understand what you're saying and I know full well that this is exactly what takes place most of the time. What I'm saying is there is no provision in Florida Statute for the "testing" of a vehicle on a public road...period.

Granted. Just as I also believe there is nothing in the Florida Statutes that plainly states that as long as someone does not break the law, someone cannot use diagnostic equipment on public highways in order to troubleshoot an issue with their vehicle.

So is it against the law, for instance, for someone to go from 0 to 30 mph in first gear, thereby winding up the engine and perhaps SOUNDING like the car is "racing"? Specifically, how quickly can someone accelerate from 0 to 30 mph "legally"? Heck, for that matter, I'm not really certain of the source of such information, but the specs on muscle cars generally released from the manufacturers will quote such statistics as the acceleration from 0 to 60 to be used as a comparison with competing brands. So let's say that the Z06 can accelerate from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds. Is this a statistic for comparison that is actually ILLEGAL to do on a public road where the speed limit is 60 mph? Or is there some law that states specifically that someone can ONLY accelerate to a given speed NO LESS than a certain stated time limit?

Stuff like this just cannot be TOTALLY at the discretion of the officer observing the incident. If a law is on the books that can cause someone to be fined or otherwise penalized LEGALLY, then it cannot be so overly broad and so vague in definition that someone doesn't have any way to know that what they are doing is actually illegal. What such laws do, in reality, is to give a LEO the capability of being able to enforce a law AT A WHIM without the person engaged in such activity having any POSSIBILITY of knowing beforehand that the activity they were intent to engage in could possibly be considered illegal. Which fosters and promotes ABUSE by a LEO so inclined, plain and simple. It gives an officer, who perhaps is just having a bad day and wanting to target SOMEONE (anyone!) as the focus of blowing off steam, a "law" that basically allows them to "get" someone on "something", because it is so vague and ludicrously defined that it actually has no real meaning. And as such, it provides no manner at all for any FACTS or EVIDENCE to be entered in either the prosecution or the defense in court other than the officer simply "observed" the defendant engaged in something that the officer is "interpreting" as being in violation of some vaguely worded and defined "law".

A law that states going OVER 30 mph is against the law is clearly defined and easily provable as being a violation based on evidence the officer can provide. The driver is fully aware of the law, and has the ability to avoid violating that law via their own purposeful actions. The violation is for WILLFULLY violating a plainly stated law. On the other hand, a citation based on the claim that someone accelerated too rapidly in the officer's "opinion", with no factual data to be used as a yardstick of willful violation, is pure BS, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Shadow

It's not and I'm sure the magistrate would see that. If not, then it needs to be brought out. But the fact still remains that a lot of street racers keep laptops and other "diagnostic equipment" in thier cars when preparing for or during a race. Thats a given that even a first year LEO knows.

This is completely irrelevant. The foundation of law is the premise that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It would be much like claiming that anyone who buys a ski mask must therefore be immediately arrested because they have obvious intentions (to the LEO) of being a mugger, based on such an item being in common usage for such an activity.

[Guro305]

Originally Posted by MiamiMuscle

I got a carless driving citation in miami beach 316.1925 for accelrating too fast even though i didnt even chirp the tires or exceeed the speed limit. The officer thought i was racing another car. I havent had a ticket in almost 2 years , should i take this to court or is it a losing battle?? I really dont wanna lose points, my insurance is high enough as it is. Im considering traffic school but u only get 5 lifetime and im on my 3rd already and would like to save it for an actual speeding offense.

Hold up, you're from Miami and asking this question? Come on man, Ticket Clinic is $60 in Miami-Dade. Pay them the $60 and kiss the ticket good-bye.

What were you thinking anyway? Cops on Miami Beach give tickets for "cruisin'". Just knowing that, you should always be cognesant of them everywhere and not do anything to get their attention.

[MiamiMuscle]

Originally Posted by Shadow

And again as mentioned, the "proof" is in fact the officers observations. I'd almost like to see mandatory video cams in all partol cars and have the tapes made part of the ticket package.

That is such a brilliant concept!!!!! How would someone go about campaigning that to become a legitimate bill to be voted on? So many people i know are disgusted with the current system we have, not only this topic but many things i could go on for days ranting about. I have heard several genius ideas that would help alieviate many problems our socitey deals with on a daily basis, but no one actually goes out and does anything about it. I guess in a way its pretty musch useless to even waste time trying to achieve the impossible, when I know that the immense pull the lawyers in this country have on our lawmakers would prevent this from ever happeneing. Theres way too much money on the line for them to lose if this was to ever become a law. Just imagine how many ticket busting law firms would go under the day after this thing gets passed. But then again, if countys can ticket us using cameras, then why shouldnt police officers require the infraction caught on tape as well. If we cant be tried by a jury of ours peers for an infraction, at least have proof beyond a doubt in the form of a video, before you can coerce someone to pay you their hard earned cash, at least thats the way i see it.

Also in response to someones suggestion to pay for a lawyer or use a ticket busting agencies that charges $60. I know about these places and have even used them in the past and had much success with them. They provide a great service to busy people that have no time to go in person to court and play the game of deal or no deal. i dont like paying anyone to do anything i can do, its the reason i change my own oil, cut my own lawn, paint my own apartment etc...I knowhow the system works, im going to waste half a day going to precourt, the judge in training is going to offer me a plea deal based on my past record and i can either take it or take my chances in court, before being reminded that losing might result in court costs not to exceed a $1000 or whatever (in my opinion a coercive tactic to scare people into just taking the deal and getting money out of you, since why should we pay court cost, doesnt our taxes already pay for this?). The system is such a joke and soo inneficient that im just wasting my time even ranting about it because its never going to change, if it hasnt by now. Damn i sound bitter lol I think i need to go lift some weights or something to get all this pent up anger out of my system.

On a brighter note, whos going to Sebring on may24-25 for the open track event?? Someone on the Charger forums notified me about the event earlier today and i was seriously considering going since its open to first timers like myself. I have to reread the email again because i read it in a hurry, but i beleive it cost $200 and requires a specific helmet thats "something" approved ( i cant remeber right now). Does anyone know a good place to pick one of the up in south florida and a good safe,but affordable, brand/model they can recommend. Any recomendations would be greatly appreaciated. If u want more info about thsi event please let me know and i"ll send u the email i was sent regarding all of the details. At first i thought $200 seemed likea lot of money, but putting it in perspective, I'll rather pay a track providing a service to the community over a beaurcracy that squanders its citizens money with an inadequate system. Hope to see some of u guys there if im still in time to register.

[MiamiMuscle]

Originally Posted by Guro305

Hold up, you're from Miami and asking this question? Come on man, Ticket Clinic is $60 in Miami-Dade. Pay them the $60 and kiss the ticket good-bye.

What were you thinking anyway? Cops on Miami Beach give tickets for "cruisin'". Just knowing that, you should always be cognesant of them everywhere and not do anything to get their attention.

Are u telling me!!! lol I never do anything over 35 on the beach ever, under any circumstance. This happened on 5th street in front of the Burger King at the last light before the causeway. This is basically an on ramp to those familair with the area. The speed limit even changes from 35 to 40 i beleive and i still was going under 35 at the time of the stop. If anything i should have gotten a ticket for driving 5 under the speed limit, if theres such a law. which i wouldnt be surprised if there was after getting ticketed for this BS. The Police here doesnt even patrol the neighborhood streets anymore they are soo concerned with traffic tickets. Just last week I saw a couple of lil hoodlums no older than 15 breaking into a parked car about 3 blocks from my house, i scared them away and immediatly drove to a patrol car i passed that was stopped making a traffic stop not too far away and parked behind him to tell him what i saw. When i pulled up behind him, i turned my emergency lights on and was about to get out and he yelled at me to move and that i couldnt park there lol i then got out anyways and told him what i saw and he asked if my property was affected, i said no and he said he would look into it. It almost seemed like he didnt even care he was soo busy writting his ticket, i went home parked my car and decided to take a walk around the block incase i saw them again so that i could point them out to the police i was sure was on there way in numbers. Guess what?? about 15-20 minutes later i saw a marked patrol car make about 2 quick laps around the block and then he pulled onto Harding ave and next thing i know he was pulling someone over because i heard his siren and saw him follwing a car with his lights on as he passed the intersection i was walking on. I felt like going up to him and saying "thats it!! your giving up that fast??", but i didnt even bother, id probably get arrested for harrassing a law officer or vigilante or some other trumped up charge just to get me off his back. i bet u that officer doesnt even live in my neighborhood, youd figure they would be contributing to society, instead of being a drain on it.

Also Rich, you make alot of excellant points and I applaud you for running such a truly free forum where people can speak their minds and engage in an intellectual discussion without any of the negativity found in other forums. i agree that everyone should have a say, wether i agree with them or not, as long as its free of immature name calling and people stick to the facts. You should consider starting another thread consisting of all V8 modern American muscle cars. Im sure more than a few of the openminded charger forums members would become a member in a heartbeat after meeting some of the great members i have been fortunate to cyber meet on here. After reading several posts on here, i have to admit, you guys have a really tight knit family type atmosphere going on here, kind of reminds me of LXforums, too bad we are both seperated by our choice of cars. Im sure some of those guys would find alot in common with a few people that have commented on this post, including you Rich. Your site rocks, thanks guys for all of the advise. I still havent decided what im going to do, most probably just take take whatever they offer me in precourt as long as it doesnt involve any points being deducted. if i change my mind and decide to fight it till the bitter end, ill make sure to come back on here and update u on the outcome, once again thanks everybody, c'yall around.

[Shadow]

Also Rich, you make alot of excellant points and I applaud you for running such a truly free forum where people can speak their minds and engage in an intellectual discussion without any of the negativity found in other forums

...i have to admit, you guys have a really tight knit family type atmosphere going on here

Thats what makes this place what it is How many other sites would you find the mods "debating" with the administrator? Really funny part is, we do the same in real life
It really is more of a family here We can debate and disagree all day long, yet ask for or need help and see who comes to your aid. I called one of the guys here a few weeks ago when my 87 tossed the serpentine belt Needed a tool I didn't have in my bag In 15 minutes he was on scene and in a half and hour we were done...including the run to Autozone for a new beltDoesn't get any better than that!

As far as the "Brilliant idea"I wouldn't hold my breath. No one wants big brother looking over thier shoulder all day, even the police. Although I see the positive side of the proposal, the safety and validation issues, the PBA, as you said, the Lawyers lobbyist and probably some other groups would be all over such a proposal like a fly on doo doo.

It would however, I firmly believe, reduce the back log in the courts, the unnecessary court cases (on both sides) and I think to a degree, improve the publics perception of the police by helping to validate thier (LEO's) observations.

i dont like paying anyone to do anything i can do, its the reason i change my own oil, cut my own lawn, paint my own apartment etc

I know what you're saying, but there's somethings better left to the professionals I go out and work my arse off doing what I do best, so I can pay those that do what they do best to do thier best for me

requires a specific helmet thats "something" approved ( i cant remeber right now). Does anyone know a good place to pick one of the up in south florida and a good safe,but affordable, brand/model they can recommend

SNELL/ANSI ratings. It's the safety and impact rating given to safety equipment and helmets. Get the latest and the highest rating you can find. The more recent the better. As far as cost/brand, of course the standards, Bell, Shoei and such are always a good bet. There are several helmet manufacturers out there that produce a quality product. Go to your local motorcycle dealership/equipment store (crotch rocket dealer preferably) and ask them. They'll have what you need. I would generally suggest NOT buying used unless you know the previous owner and thier habits. FOrget the health issues, you can clean the liners on most. The safety issue is a bigger concern. Was the helmet ever dropped (hard)? Was the helmet and inside taken care of? And how old is the helmet.

But ask the crotch rocket riders. They're a good resource for such information and suppliers.

As far as cost, you only have one brain. I'd suggest spending what you think your brain is worth. This truly is an area where you don't want to skimp on quality.

And $200 for a track day is very resonable

COme on back (or stick around) as much as you like. You're always welcome here...

Gordon

[Shadow]

So tell me, how many new car dealerships do you know of that have dynos in their shop?

So take your car to a dealership and tell them you have a hesitation upon acceleration and then tell me how they try to diagnose the problem.

Probably not that many; however, with the $$$ these dealerships make and the support some get from the factoy, I always wondered why they didn't? With streets becoming more congested, it's getting more and more difficult to find a "test track."

As I said before, I'm not arguing the point. I know it's done as a matter of procedure on a daily basis. And if we're talking about "normal accelleration" then no, there's no violation

Granted. Just as I also believe there is nothing in the Florida Statutes that plainly states that as long as someone does not break the law, someone cannot use diagnostic equipment on public highways in order to troubleshoot an issue with their vehicle.

There's not.

So is it against the law, for instance, for someone to go from 0 to 30 mph in first gear, thereby winding up the engine and perhaps SOUNDING like the car is "racing"?

GOd I hope not!! If so, then throw the book at me right now

Specifically, how quickly can someone accelerate from 0 to 30 mph "legally"?

There is no "specific" determination in statute. That's what makes the current statutes so ambiguous and subject ot "officer interpretation."

Heck, for that matter, I'm not really certain of the source of such information, but the specs on muscle cars generally released from the manufacturers will quote such statistics as the acceleration from 0 to 60 to be used as a comparison with competing brands. So let's say that the Z06 can accelerate from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds. Is this a statistic for comparison that is actually ILLEGAL to do on a public road where the speed limit is 60 mph? Or is there some law that states specifically that someone can ONLY accelerate to a given speed NO LESS than a certain stated time limit?

Last part first, no, there's not a "specific" time frame. To address the next part, again it depends on the officers perception. Read the racing on highways section of the Florida statutes. It addresses this pretty well.

Stuff like this just cannot be TOTALLY at the discretion of the officer observing the incident

.

You'd be surprised That's why we have courts bro

If a law is on the books that can cause someone to be fined or otherwise penalized LEGALLY, then it cannot be so overly broad and so vague in definition that someone doesn't have any way to know that what they are doing is actually illegal.

I'm going to once again suggest you read the traffic statutes specifically related to "carelss", "Racing on the Highway" and "Special Hazards". All are found under F.S.S. 316. You might be surprised how much interpreting we get to do out there

What such laws do, in reality, is to give a LEO the capability of being able to enforce a law AT A WHIM without the person engaged in such activity having any POSSIBILITY of knowing beforehand that the activity they were intent to engage in could possibly be considered illegal.

...and....???

Which fosters and promotes ABUSE by a LEO so inclined, plain and simple.

Sure it does; however, most won't abuse the opportunity. The courts exist (in most cases anyway) as a check and balance.

Besides, in most cases, and there are exceptions, when someone commits one of the violations we're discussing, they usually knew ahead of time what they were doing "might" be illegal or maybe dangerous, and make a conscious decision to do it anyway. Most of the laws are pretty much common sense. Not that they all make sense, but the violations are pretty obvious. I don't agree with ambiguous way many are written, but if they get too specific then they're difficult if not impossible to enforce. IT's a ver gray line

It gives an officer, who perhaps is just having a bad day and wanting to target SOMEONE (anyone!) as the focus of blowing off steam, a "law" that basically allows them to "get" someone on "something", because it is so vague and ludicrously defined that it actually has no real meaning. And as such, it provides no manner at all for any FACTS or EVIDENCE to be entered in either the prosecution or the defense in court other than the officer simply "observed" the defendant engaged in something that the officer is "interpreting" as being in violation of some vaguely worded and defined "law".

Yes. And?

A law that states going OVER 30 mph is against the law is clearly defined and easily provable as being a violation based on evidence the officer can provide. The driver is fully aware of the law, and has the ability to avoid violating that law via their own purposeful actions. The violation is for WILLFULLY violating a plainly stated law. On the other hand, a citation based on the claim that someone accelerated too rapidly in the officer's "opinion", with no factual data to be used as a yardstick of willful violation, is pure BS, in my opinion.

Not arguing with you Rich, simply stating factual data that can be easily retrieved. The statutes exist for one reason or another. That's why I so vehemently endorse PAYING ATTENTION to your elected officials and the bills and laws they propose. Once they're on the books, it's almost impossible to get them amended or removed

This is completely irrelevant. The foundation of law is the premise that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Bro....this is TRAFFIC COURT not a 1st degree mrder trial. You don't even have the "RIGHT" to an attorney in traffic court (provided by the state that is).

It would be much like claiming that anyone who buys a ski mask must therefore be immediately arrested because they have obvious intentions (to the LEO) of being a mugger, based on such an item being in common usage for such an activity

Traffic v. criminal....two totally different worlds

But using that same analogy, buying a Zo6 doesn't automatically make you a traffic violator any more than owning a ski mask makes you a bank robber

Traffic laws need to be better written (IMO) but they never ask me

[Shadow]

Some linkage:

http://www.tampagov.net/dept_police/...SS_316-191.pdf

This was posted by Ghostrider on MMS:

Florida appellate court, State V Wells. Reckless driving should be used instead of Racing until there is some counter decision in the future. This is a case law however, so the law is still the statute books until it has officially been repealed.
And actually, there has been in place since 2005 a more specific statute that covers their act under FSS 316.1923 called "Aggressive careless driving" in which you do 2 or more stupid things to kill yourself and someone else (like speeding, improper lane change, cutting in, following too closely, violation of right of way or violation of traffic signal / device).
And for Stricken... FSS 316.183(5) is driving too slowly which is the one they would use for the rolling traffic block if they did not use the racing portion of the statute
Kinda like Roe vs Wade, it can keep going back and forth depending on the court's decision each time.

As you can see from his information, where there's a will to mess with you, there's always a way

And finally, Florida Statutes, Chapter 316. Gives you pretty much all you need or want to know about traffic statutes regarding moving violations....happy reading....

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...6/titl0316.htm

[CHASZ51]

I should have had a 100 tickets the way i take off in my C6!