General Motors/Ford/Chrysler/UAW

[Harbor Master]

There is something I have noticed. When many of the Florida natives talk about the problems the auto industry is experiencing. They put much of the blame on the unions (UAW). I will be the first to admit that unions share in the problems that the big three are going through. I am not sure exactly what it is that some of you feel the unions have done. Wages, benefits, job boundaries, job classifications, or maybe work ethic. Many people I associate with work for GM in both union and salary jobs. I have heard both sides of their stories. So I am somewhat versed on the subject.

I do not feel this can be discussed very well using PMs. If PMs must be used so be it. Unless I am directed to do different, let's try using quotes.

I will not argue this subject. I will constructively discuss it and attempt to take labors side in the discussion. I encourage all those with questions or criticisms to join in the discussion. HUTCH

[Lou G]

I am sure that through the years, unions have done a great service to their members.
However, unions have also been known to be in many cases controlled by mobsters.
In New York city, nothing, absolutely nothing gets done unless you pay people off.
In order to keep their members employed, unions many times have delayed progressive ideas rather than educating their members to use new tools, etc.
I know for a fact that in the railroad in New Jersey a few years ago, there was a new improved way to tabulate train costs, etc. The new procedure was implemented but union workers also continued the old way and threw their work in the garbage at the end of the day. I don't see the incentive for union members to excel at their jobs.
Now, my understanding is that unions do not want a secret ballot when company employees vote on whether they want a union or not. Not very democratic to me.

[dvdcta]

GEEZ.........I'm just over wellmed by this knowledge!!!!

[Harbor Master]

Originally Posted by wellmed

GEEZ.........I'm just over wellmed by this knowledge!!!!

This discussion is just beginning DVD. Be patient my friend. I think we all have a lot to learn from both sides of the discussion. I would like very much for this to be a proactive thread. HUTCH

[Harbor Master]

Originally Posted by Lou G

I am sure that through the years, unions have done a great service to their members.
However, unions have also been known to be in many cases controlled by mobsters.
In New York city, nothing, absolutely nothing gets done unless you pay people off.
In order to keep their members employed, unions many times have delayed progressive ideas rather than educating their members to use new tools, etc.
I know for a fact that in the railroad in New Jersey a few years ago, there was a new improved way to tabulate train costs, etc. The new procedure was implemented but union workers also continued the old way and threw their work in the garbage at the end of the day. I don't see the incentive for union members to excel at their jobs.
Now, my understanding is that unions do not want a secret ballot when company employees vote on whether they want a union or not. Not very democratic to me.

Lou G, I agree that any vote should be by secret ballot. Sometimes it is like any election. When people feel pressured in public by their piers they will agree just to put it to rest. This is true no matter if it is from a company side or union. The end result if it was open for viewing would be bad no matter which way they voted.

I cannot intelligently talk to unions and organized crime. There are ways for unions and their members to combat this problem. I would assume it a dangerous and even life threatening thing to do. Government has agencies to deal with this, but again very scary. Sad but true.

I am familiar with the UAW and the Utility workers Union. Both of which I grew up with, and one that I was very active in.

HUTCH

[dvdcta]

[OK!!! I GET MY AZZ IN ENOUGH TROUBLE!!!!

[gsdave]

Well, I can speak from the construction industry from dealing with mechanical contractors for the past 12 years. I have found that generally a contractor with unionized employees has a tough time competing with a contractor that does not have unionized employees in a public bid (low) environment. The difference sometimes is staggering. Everyone buys similar equipment, the difference is labor cost and company overhead. If these companies have a tough time competing, then I can understand the automobile manufacturer's having a tough time competing on a global market when faced with similar problems. Is the root of their problems all union? Not hardly, but I do believe it is a major part.

My personal opinion on unions is that this is not the early 1900's and people have a choice who they work for. The reasons people strike in modern times is comical compared to the reasons unions were originally formed. If your employer does not treat you right, find one that will. If you can't get the benefits, salary, etc that you want in your current field of work, find another one. There a thousands of people in the community I live in that would love to have the jobs that many of the auto workers have at half of the reported pay and benefits of the big three's employees.

[dvdcta]

Originally Posted by Harbor Master

Lou G, I agree that any vote should be by secret ballot. Sometimes it is like any election. When people feel pressured in public by their piers they will agree just to put it to rest. This is true no matter if it is from a company side or union. The end result if it was open for viewing would be bad no matter which way they voted.

I cannot intelligently talk to unions and organized crime. There are ways for unions and their members to combat this problem. I would assume it a dangerous and even life threatening thing to do. Government has agencies to deal with this, but again very scary. Sad but true.

I am familiar with the UAW and the Utility workers Union. Both of which I grew up with, and one that I was very active in.

DID I EVER TELL YOU?? I'M A sicilian...... NOW THE CHIT REALLY DID HIT THE FAN?????????? YOUR BUD ! AKA THE PHANTOM!!!..........DON'T FORGET TO TAKE OUT THE TRASH TO NIGHT!!!! OR YOUR LADY IS GOIN TO BE PIS**D...........PHANTOM!!!! HUTCH

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[THOR]

DVD, you aren't making any sense in your posts. The other guys are making valid points and interesting to read. Please stay on topic so there is a continuity of thought. THis is a polite request, please.
Regarding the history of Unions, I can understand why they exist. Previously, the workers had no rights and were almost slave labor mentality.
But the old cliche' holds true here-Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Unions dictating what work can be done or not done is not good for business. Take the tire industry for example. John Doe can build 6 large truck tires a day. His co-worker Lazy Bob can only build 3 of the same tires per day. The union protects Lazy Bob and takes any incentive away from John Doe by allowing the workers to build only 3 tires a day!!
Why short change innovation and hard work. We've become a nation of doing just enough to get by and therfore losing our global influence in the market place.

[Harbor Master]

Originally Posted by gsdave

Well, I can speak from the construction industry from dealing with mechanical contractors for the past 12 years. I have found that generally a contractor with unionized employees has a tough time competing with a contractor that does not have unionized employees in a public bid (low) environment. The difference sometimes is staggering. Everyone buys similar equipment, the difference is labor cost and company overhead. If these companies have a tough time competing, then I can understand the automobile manufacturer's having a tough time competing on a global market when faced with similar problems. Is the root of their problems all union? Not hardly, but I do believe it is a major part.

My personal opinion on unions is that this is not the early 1900's and people have a choice who they work for. The reasons people strike in modern times is comical compared to the reasons unions were originally formed. If your employer does not treat you right, find one that will. If you can't get the benefits, salary, etc that you want in your current field of work, find another one. There a thousands of people in the community I live in that would love to have the jobs that many of the auto workers have at half of the reported pay and benefits of the big three's employees.

gsdave, No disagreement about union labor driving up the cost of doing business. eg: Just got quotes for asphalt work from a very large and reputable company. The man doing the bid asked if I had any other bids. I told him yes and gave the names of the other bidders. He flat out told me he could not compete because his company was union and the others were not. His company still gets the majority of the jobs in the area he services. State and private customers alike choose him over the other companies. He has the highest quality at a slightly higher price.

The population of unions I am familiar with are either young or older. It matters not which group you fall into. The truth of the matter is that they have been treated like spoiled rich kids. Usually if they want it they get it. The company shares in the blame for this. Profits are high and the company wants labor rest on the property. Rather than say no to union demands the company rolls over and gives in to the demands to avoid a possible work stoppage.

For the most part your right about union demands being trivial. Goes back to the same thing about spoiled rich kids. I spoiled my children. To the point at Christmas after they opened there new toy they would play in the box the toy came in. Now how crazy is that.

HUTCH