Motor Work Gone South

Formula Outlaw said:

Sarasota / Mid West Coast Florida

Corvettes West / Tommy Moller - Owner
6175 Clark Center Ave.
Sarasota, FL. 34238
941-922-2300
941-922-2448 fax
www.corvetteswestinc.com

Full service facility. All models of Corvettes, particularly Midyears, and other high end autos. Excellent Paint and Engine Work.


Visit their website.


Tell him I sent you and get charged 25% more....

He's the only one that touches my car....known him for 32 years....would trust him with my bank account.

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There may be a VERY serious reason that I, regretfully, may have to retract this referral. I want to give him a chance to make things right. If this does not happen I will elaborate complete with pictures. Hopefully, Tommy will make things right.

This is my "wrong" camshaft after less than 500 miles. :banghead::banghead:

Well it's been eleven days now and no reply from Corvettes West. I guess I'm being ignored......:toetap05:

That is some nasty wear on those cam lobes. I hope you get things cleared up, Soon.

Formula Outlaw said:

Well it's been eleven days now and no reply from Corvettes West. I guess I'm being ignored......:toetap05:

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I consider the Corvettes West crew good friends. Normally I prefer to get along with everyone, so for the time being I'll be polite, but maybe you should tell the "whole" story.

Well it's been eleven days now and no reply, I guess I'm being ignored......

Now, I'm not opposed to calling a shop on lousy work, if I get bad service or work I'll be sure to let them know right away to give them the chance to make things right, if that doesn't happen then I'll take another route. But, I've known Tommy, Roger and Keith since '97 when I bought my first Corvette, they have been nothing but great to deal with and have gone out of their way to take care of my 81 and 63. Tommy actually lent me the shop engine hoist along with HIS truck to move it and came to my house after closing to help drop a motor into my 81, so I know they like to make things right.

So, let's take a look shall we......

On 06-17-2006, 03:13 AM Corvettes West gets a glowing review.

Then on 02-04-2008, 11:45 PM there's a "VERY serious reason that I, regretfully, may have to retract this referral."

A post on 02-05-2008, 12:21 AM and another on 02-07-2008, 12:29 AM, then nothing. By the way, Last Activity: 02-14-2008 12:28 AM

4 posts and 12 days later I guess it's time to make another post.

If I owned a shop, did work on someone's car in good faith and was paid with a rubber check for a couple thousand bucks then was ignored by the check writer/customer for well over a year I would have them prosecuted to the FULL extent possible. If it was possible I would also put a lien on the car that was worked on. I'm a really easy going person, but if someone screws me I believe in dishing out instant karma. That's the nice version since there might be kids viewing and I read a post here about swearing.

Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast......

63GSreplica said:

Well it's been eleven days now and no reply, I guess I'm being ignored......

Now, I'm not opposed to calling a shop on lousy work, if I get bad service or work I'll be sure to let them know right away to give them the chance to make things right, if that doesn't happen then I'll take another route. But, I've known Tommy, Roger and Keith since '97 when I bought my first Corvette, they have been nothing but great to deal with and have gone out of their way to take care of my 81 and 63. Tommy actually lent me the shop engine hoist along with HIS truck to move it and came to my house after closing to help drop a motor into my 81, so I know they like to make things right.

So, let's take a look shall we......

On 06-17-2006, 03:13 AM Corvettes West gets a glowing review.

Then on 02-04-2008, 11:45 PM there's a "VERY serious reason that I, regretfully, may have to retract this referral."

A post on 02-05-2008, 12:21 AM and another on 02-07-2008, 12:29 AM, then nothing. By the way, Last Activity: 02-14-2008 12:28 AM

4 posts and 12 days later I guess it's time to make another post.

If I owned a shop, did work on someone's car in good faith and was paid with a rubber check for a couple thousand bucks then was ignored by the check writer/customer for well over a year I would have them prosecuted to the FULL extent possible. If it was possible I would also put a lien on the car that was worked on. I'm a really easy going person, but if someone screws me I believe in dishing out instant karma. That's the nice version since there might be kids viewing and I read a post here about swearing.

Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast......

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A FULL story will be posted in the Board of Inquiry section complete with photos. I've known Tommy since 1975 when he moved here from New York, and I don't blame Tommy for my motor problems cause he was at a family reunion in SC at the time. Up until this incident I had only praise from him.

But allow me to address a couple of issues you brought up....

In Jan of 07' I was in a near fatal car crash and took over ten months to recover from.

I had written Corvettes West a check for a little over a grand which was the final payment on the motor work done. My seperated wife got her backside in a sling with the IRS and because we were still legally married, the IRS froze my bank account on which that check was written. After two meetings with the IRS they agreed to unfreeze my bank account. There was enough money in the account to cover Tommy's check along with two others. Then I was in the accident. For three months I was in a hospital/trauma center and had no communication with anyone from the outside world. The bank, not hearing from me, took the money out of my account, closing it, to apply to the VISA card balance I owed. I had left a message with Corvettes West that the bank account had become unfrozen but apparently the check was not deposited in time. I did what I could to let Tommy know to deposit the check, why he didn't I don't know. Had he done so when I notified him he would have gotten his money. Why he procrastinated only he knows. I did NOT write him a rubber check. I will fully admit that after everything, I just figure I saved myself some money rather than simply just throwing it away, like the first two thirds of that work. I love people like yourself who just mouth off without knowing the facts. I can appreciate coming to someone's defense, I'm usually the first to do so, but I know my facts first, something you need to work on.

Tommy sent me an email which I will post on the board of inquiry along with the photos of my parts. After about nine paragraphs of gobblity goop of trying to pass the buck, HE NEVER EVER ADDRESSED THE ISSUE, NOT ONE SINGLE WORD, OF WHY A ROLLER CAM WAS NOT INSTALLED IN MY MOTOR WHEN IT WAS REQUIRED. NOT A SINGLE WORD.

Now I've had three different mechanics, who build engines for NASCAR, tell me the reason, AND THE ONLY REASON, my engine went south was the failure to install a roller cam with the roller lifters. Tommy had nothing to say. Again, only he knows why.

In my communications with Tommy, I never got mad, I only asked a question that was never answered. As I said previously, I'm not as mad as I am disappointed.

And that is the real story.

So the next time you're talking with Tommy, ask him why he didn't install a roller cam in my car when it was required. If you get the answer, do me a favor and let me know would you? Thanks.

In Sept. of 06 I developed a slightling seeping head gasket in my 65 Vette. As usual I took it to Corvettes West in Sarasota, who had not only done all of the previous work (to which I was always more than satisified) but I'd also known Tommy since he had moved to Sarasota from NY in 1975. Considered him a good friend.

While the heads were off he suggested that we install roller lifters and rockers for better, and smoother, performance. Anything to make it run better to me is like the holy grail so of course I agreed.

Tommy was nice enough to let me pay the car in three installments. And here I fully admit it gets a bit sticky. I wrote him the final check and asked him to hold it because the IRS had frozen my bank account because my seperated but still legally married to "wife", had gotten her backside in a sling over taxes she'd owed previously to knowing me. Because she was still legally married to me, the IRS froze my account also covering their backside. After two meetings with the IRS they finally agreed to unfreeze my account. I notified Corvettes West that it was okay to deposit the check and left for TN helping my brother move up here. Unfortunately I was involved in a near fatal crash and took ten months to recover from. During the first three months I had no contact with anyone. The bank, not hearing from me, took the money out of my account to apply toward a VISA card they had issued me. They had no idea where I was so they covered their backside. For reasons known only to Corvettes West, the check was never deposited. Apparently sometime last summer Tommy tried only to be told the account had been closed leaving him holding the check. Under different circumstances I would certainly pay him that check. Under different circumstances that is. Now this may not be right, but at the moment I feel that is just more money I ultimately did not just throw away.

For whatever reason, Corvettes West did not install a roller cam in my motor when they installed the roller lifters/rockers, which is REQUIRED. A regular cam will just "slap" at the roller lifters and destroy the lobe tips, which is exactly what happened. Because of my injuries, I put less than five hundred miles on my car before the motor self destructed. The only good thing is I didn't put a rod through the side of the block. I had three different mechanics up here, all who build engines for NASCAR, tell me that the ONLY REASON MY MOTOR WENT SOUTH WAS THE FAILURE TO INSTALL A ROLLER CAM WITH THE ROLLER LIFTERS. One even stated that any mechanice who could draw a paycheck two weeks in a row would know better.

I communicated with Tommy about this issue. I never got mad, I just asked why wasn't a roller cam installed? I finally got an email back from him passing the buck in about every way one could think of, but he NEVER EVER ADDRESSED THE ISSUE OF WHY A ROLLER CAM WAS NOT INSTALLED IN MY MOTOR. NOT ONE SINGLE WORD. He accused me of driving the car over five hundred miles, he said my motor was "old and I'd only wanted a temporary fix" (okay so think about this for a second, I've got a seeping head gasket and I only want it "temporarily fixed"???? Does that even sound close to reasonable????) He emailed me about nine paragraphs about gobbility goop and threatened to post the check that never cleared if I "badmouthed" him. Why he procrastinated on depositing that check after notified it was okay to do so only he knows. But for the sake of "full disclosure" I wanted that check on the record.

They say a picture says a thousand words. Well, you look at the pictures and judge for yourself.

And I'm not "badmouthing" anyone here. I'm only relaying to anyone who might be interested as to what happened to me. Each of you will come to your own conclusions.

I wish more than anything that Tommy would have had the "sack" to just apologize for the problems, but I didn't even get that. I would have thought that after knowing someone for 33 years, I would have at least gotten that.

Anyone who wants further evidence can contact Corey (service manager)at Classic Cars Southeast, 615-449-4300 or Erik at 615-688-4844. I'm sure they would be more than happy to verify my account of the damage and cause of my motor.

More than anything I regret the loss of a friendship.

More pix.

Forgot to mention but you can probably guess for yourself....

The metal "filings, etc" that came off the cam lobes got into just about everything, which is now why my motor is torn down completely.

I guess that's just life.....

Formula Outlaw said:

I love people like yourself who just mouth off without knowing the facts. I can appreciate coming to someone's defense, I'm usually the first to do so, but I know my facts first, something you need to work on.

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I love it when people post about how a vendor did them wrong WITHOUT first posting their version of the story, I guess it's my fault for not flying in from Iraq to break into your house to look over your financial records and interrogate you so I can GET THE FACTS before shooting off my mouth. I posted what I knew of the situation, don't like it, tough crap. Here's a clue, this is the internet and it goes all over the world, if you aren't adult enough or smart enough to put your facts out there then prepare to get your feelings hurt. If a vendor did something to me that I thought was wrong, I would do everything possible to resolve the problem like an adult FIRST before I made a half-assed post on the internet.

I can understand people have problems, stuff happens that you have no control over, perfectly understandable. But by your own admission you've had time for "three different mechanics, who build engines for NASCAR" to check out your motor, but you can't get on the phone or better yet just drop in and talk to Tommy. Well, like you said, "I will fully admit that after everything, I just figure I saved myself some money rather than simply just throwing it away, like the first two thirds of that work."

All I can say is suck it up and quit whining about it or go be a man and talk to Tommy face to face and resolve the problem.

Well I guess the Mods need to lock this one up since you guys decided to HIJACK it from its intended purpose.....start another thread or take it to PM but don't hijack my thread to argue

pewter99 said:

Well I guess the Mods need to lock this one up since you guys decided to HIJACK it from its intended purpose.....start another thread or take it to PM but don't hijack my thread to argue

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Good point

Posts have been merged into the BOI thread started by Formula Outlaw.

Let's keep it here until it's resolved.

Thanks guys:thumbsup:

63GSreplica said:

I love it when people post about how a vendor did them wrong WITHOUT first posting their version of the story, I guess it's my fault for not flying in from Iraq to break into your house to look over your financial records and interrogate you so I can GET THE FACTS before shooting off my mouth. I posted what I knew of the situation, don't like it, tough crap. Here's a clue, this is the internet and it goes all over the world, if you aren't adult enough or smart enough to put your facts out there then prepare to get your feelings hurt. If a vendor did something to me that I thought was wrong, I would do everything possible to resolve the problem like an adult FIRST before I made a half-assed post on the internet.

I can understand people have problems, stuff happens that you have no control over, perfectly understandable. But by your own admission you've had time for "three different mechanics, who build engines for NASCAR" to check out your motor, but you can't get on the phone or better yet just drop in and talk to Tommy. Well, like you said, "I will fully admit that after everything, I just figure I saved myself some money rather than simply just throwing it away, like the first two thirds of that work."

All I can say is suck it up and quit whining about it or go be a man and talk to Tommy face to face and resolve the problem.

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I gave Tommy almost four weeks to respond to multiple emails. I never got mad at him, I only wanted an answer as to why to a roller cam was not installed in my motor when it is required with roller lifters. HE was the one who never answered the question. He threw everything else but the kitchen sink at me as to why it wasn't his fault, but yet NEVER ANSWERED THE ORIGINAL QUESTION. He commented on how he had done other work, which he had, besides work on the valve train, but it was the work on the valve train which was the issue. An issue he NEVER EVER addressed.

I now live in TN. It's not exactly convienent to just drop in and talk to Tommy, and I prefer email over phone conversations because YOU HAVE A RECORD AS TO WHAT WAS SAID.

No, I don't expect you to examine my financial records, but you were the one who kind of jumped the gun as to what actually happened. It was you who made an incorrect assumption by not knowing the facts. You jumped me because of what apparently Tommy told you, and I fully admit that here I am guessing for I do not know. However, likewise, you did not know the whole story yet you jumped on me.

I can't figure out what you mean by a half-assed post. I wrote it as cordial as I could without anger, complete with photographs of the damage, and the names and telephone numbers of the mechanics who saw the damage and are doing the repair work now required. I'd say that was a reasonably responsible post. You say you posted what you knew of the situation and if I don't like it tough crap. Well here's a news flash. You might have considered ASKING what the full story was before you jumped on me, rather than just jumping in headfirst and defending Tommy about something that you did NOT know what the story was. You are the one who is looking like the jackass here, not me.

And hurt my feelings????? You can't possibly be serious.....I doubt that I could find one person in a thousand who has a reasonable command of the English language who would consider anything I've written, or posted, as whining. All I did was, without emotion, post an incident that happened to me, no more no less. And then you come in the like 84th Airborne to rescue Tommy.

I've already "sucked it up" and resigned myself to the fact that I got screwed, by someone who was supposedly a friend. Heck, all I ever really wanted was some type of explanation, or maybe even an apology, but I got nothing but a gobbility goop runaround. Okay so be it. I have a life to live and I'm not losing sleep over this. I'm only posting about an incident that happened to me with one certain shop. That's all. What I posted was the truth, after that I really don't care.

Be careful and best of luck to you in Iraq.

Shadow said:

Posts have been merged into the BOI thread started by Formula Outlaw.

Let's keep it here until it's resolved.

Thanks guys:thumbsup:

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Thanks for keeping this alive.

It's as resolved as it's going to get. The owner of Corvettes West won't even address the issue, not one single word.

And as previously stated, my post was not intended as "badmouthing" anyone. All I did was report an incident that happened to me. I've done so, complete with photographs and names and numbers of disinterested parties who can verify what, and why, my motor self destructed, and unless someone else wants to jump on me for merely reporting a truthful incident, I'm done with it.

Everyone is entitled to draw their own conclusions.

I also think that this particular Forum is extremely valuable and I thank you for providing it.

I don't have a horse in this race & have heard nothing but good about Tommy in the past.

What I will offer is my opinion on what went wrong on this build. The valve train geomitry was not set-up properly from the get go as the rockers show the retainers were hitting hard. This caused instability and the lifters were hammering, not gliding on the lobes so that eventually hammered through the case hardening of the cam. The metal debris is very hard material & then caused wear throughout the rotating assy. It appears it was all as simple as checking installed spring hieght, wipe pattern, bind, and rocker to retainer clearance & there would have most likely been no issue. He may have had someone else do the setup & trusted them. Either way, this is the result of improper valve train geometry.

The way it was explained to me was that a roller cam lobe is not nearly as "steep" as a regular cam which caused the lifters to just "slap" rather than roll across the cam lobes.

What you said also makes perfect sense.

I'd been friends with Tommy for over 30 years and always respected him. I promoted his business at every opportunity. He'd done other work on my car that I was VERY satisfied with. I volunteered probably a hundred and fifty hours putting on the First Sunshine Corvette Poker Run with him in 2006.

Bottom line is that the job was botched and he won't own up to it.

Disappointing to say the least.

RevXtreme 1 said:

I don't have a horse in this race & have heard nothing but good about Tommy in the past.

What I will offer is my opinion on what went wrong on this build. The valve train geomitry was not set-up properly from the get go as the rockers show the retainers were hitting hard. This caused instability and the lifters were hammering, not gliding on the lobes so that eventually hammered through the case hardening of the cam. The metal debris is very hard material & then caused wear throughout the rotating assy. It appears it was all as simple as checking installed spring hieght, wipe pattern, bind, and rocker to retainer clearance & there would have most likely been no issue. He may have had someone else do the setup & trusted them. Either way, this is the result of improper valve train geometry.

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Thank you for your opinion.

Hey Buddy long time no see.Sorry to hear about your troubles.Hope everything works out.You have always braged on Tommy so something not right.Work it big guy and lets get together sometime.:wavey:

9T8Vette said:

Hey Buddy long time no see.Sorry to hear about your troubles.Hope everything works out.You have always braged on Tommy so something not right.Work it big guy and lets get together sometime.:wavey:

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Hey, how's it going with you??? Been a looooong recovery from that accident I was in but finally got through it.

Am coming down to FL for a wedding this fall and will hook up with ya....

And you're right, something ain't right..... oh well.....:shrug01: