Civil vs. Criminal

[Shadow]

This was posted in another part of the forum:

As for the criminal part of this issue, I have been through it all trying to get charges brought aganist the ex-partner that made off with over $100k (total of nearly $250,000 is missing) but all came down to the same thing. "It's a civil matter". Same with the guy I sold the big race rig to and finianced it for...he made payments for 1 year and then quit paying. $250k rig gone and no law enforcement agency will help. Again, "It's a civil matter". Between the 2 of them it wiped me out of everything....Atty starts at $10k retainer and thats just the start.

There's apparently a huge misunderstanding between what constitutes a criminal and civil act that needs to be rectified.

I'll break these down by situation:

Same with the guy I sold the big race rig to and finianced it for...he made payments for 1 year and then quit paying. $250k rig gone and no law enforcement agency will help. Again, "It's a civil matter". Between the 2 of them it wiped me out of everything....Atty starts at $10k retainer and thats just the start

In this matter, although quasi-criminal (if the investigator and SAO were were a tinkers dam, but that's another story), it remains in the civil realm for the following reason.

1) It's contractural in nature from the outset. There was an agreed price to be paid, an amount over time to be paid, and a finance agreement in force.
What the person did, is considered a breach of contract. It "may" in matters of civil litigation, be considered "civil theft" and as such, my be recoverable as treble damages. Unfortunately, if they POS that took off with the rig had the $$$, he'd probably pay the bill. Trying to get $$ out of a turnip is generally not profitable for anyone other than the attorneys.

This is the same reasoning that allows defaulting on a home loan to result in a foreclosure and not jail time.

The poster could have:

1) Gone forward with a law suit, obtained a judgement and filed a lien. Then started looking at the defendant's assets to determine what he has that may be recoverable through writs of replevin, garnishments, etc.

2) Assuming that the initial paperwork (financing agreement) was done correctly, the poster could have done a reposession and recovered the rig that way.

In the other situation:

trying to get charges brought aganist the ex-partner that made off with over $100k (total of nearly $250,000 is missing)

Again it's contratural. The poster and the POS were "co-owners", "partners" if you will, in the business (if I'm reading the above information correctly?) and have/had an equal share and stake in the profits of the business, and the inventory.

It's not impossible to determine who did what, but it's generally not worth law enforcements time. The time allotment that would be required to sift through the partnership agreements and such is phenominal, and usually, outside the ability, capability and understanding of the average detective, even many of the white collar types.

It generally takes an attorney, not just any attorney, but someone skilled in the practice of business law, to seperate the wheat from the chaff in these cases.
Even then, most judges won't be able to make a ruling without taking the matter "under advisement" and having his/her JA or paralegals do some research.
Civil matters as this can be quite complex.

In the first matter, the one regarding the rig, the poster wouldn't need an attorney. This could be handled by anyone with all the necessary documentation, thier ducks in a row, and the willingness to file the necessary paperwork.
Cases like this are brought "pro-se" all the time

To conclude:

The biggest difference between criminal and civil, is intent.

Sloppy workmanship, poor business practices, and lousy costomer service, are not criminal.
While it "may" violate some BS administrative law that has criminal implications as an aside, it's generally going to be treated as civil in nature.
As I said before, unless put on the spot, all the state is going to be interested in, is the $$$$$.
(They may take criminal actions in the other case because too many people know about it and have made complaints, and it's an election year.)

However,

Intentionally charging for parts/work not supplied, converting (in this case) parts to one's own use, or conversion for ones own profit, the assets of another, is CRIMINAL.

Failure to meet time lines, refusing to pay for something agreed upon by contract, or a dispute over ownership, especially between 2 or more "partners" is CIVIL.

In the other section, you have BOTH

[RevXtreme 1]

Well put Shadow.

The race rig guy lives in Maryland, and have hired atty's both FL (where the contract stated FL law applies) and MD. Also had a repo company almost get it, but a neighbor called the guy and hey pulled in front of it and blocked it in, jacked the front up & removed the frnt wheels. Repo co had to leave in this type of stand-off. A fellow racer found them at MIR a few weeks after that, called me and I called the repo co. Fellow racer said they were up in the staging lanes waiting for the track to get cleaned (oil down) and the guy got a cell call, and they all run back to the rig and it takes off and they come back with a dually later for the trailer & pro-mod car. I finally turned it over to the finance co. and last I heard they were having "theft by conversion" charges filed against him. He hid the rig & they still have not recovered it.

On ex partner, Atty says "what assests does he have to attach or recover"? So stupid on my part on both deals.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by RevXtreme 1

Well put Shadow.

The race rig guy lives in Maryland, and have hired atty's both FL (where the contract stated FL law applies) and MD. ..

There's really not much reason to hire a 2nd attorney in MD.
the venue should have been Florida, more specifically, where the contract was formed or, where stated in the contract.
Just wasting money IMO by hiring the MD attorney, but I don't have all the facts.

Also had a repo company almost get it, but a neighbor called the guy and hey pulled in front of it and blocked it in, jacked the front up & removed the frnt wheels. Repo co had to leave in this type of stand-off

.


Yep!
That's the way it goes. Interfere and they have to back off in most states.

Not sure how that fat ba**ard, Ursulla (as inthe octopus from the little mermaid), his overstuffed wife, and the single digit steroid junkie, get by with it in that repo cartoon, I mean reality show, but we could use some laws like that here

And. you can thank the states and your elected officials for that!

Just like in the other case in the other section, the DOAC and it's counterparts in other states, are more interested in the $$ than justice)

A fellow racer found them at MIR a few weeks after that, called me and I called the repo co. Fellow racer said they were up in the staging lanes waiting for the track to get cleaned (oil down) and the guy got a cell call, and they all run back to the rig and it takes off and they come back with a dually later for the trailer & pro-mod car

.

If they're away for a multi day event, why not wait until the day is over, and have someone follow them back to the hotel where they park the rig?

Then, about 3-4 am (reactions are slower and most are alseep or sleeping it off), have the repo guy go snatch the rig?
Just a thought?

I finally turned it over to the finance co. and last I heard they were having "theft by conversion" charges filed against him. He hid the rig & they still have not recovered it.

And that's what I'm talking about when I say "converts property or assets of another to thier own use/profit.

You can make a civil case criminal, it just takes more time, effort and a willingness to push the "authorities" into doing what we as taxpayers pay them to do, and not let them "tell you" what they're going to do

On ex partner, Atty says "what assests does he have to attach or recover"? So stupid on my part on both deals

My first thought is, you need a better attorney

Has he bothered to look into the individuals assets? Liabilities? Liens, judgements, etc?

He/she could be correct.

This POS may have so many judgments that you'd be so far down in the pecking order, you'd never get anything. Then it's pretty much a waste of time and $$$ unless this creedent hits the power ball or something!

He may have judgment proofed himself as well. And he may have filed bankruptcy. On the latter, let's hope he did, and failed to include you
That could work out well in your favor

It may also turn out that, as a result of his actions, he's been able to windfall and pay off all his debts, have a 2nd home on the beach, multiple vehicles, vacation property inthe mountains, household goods (yes, you can levy household goods-ask OJ), etc.

You never know until you look

Looking is cheap and it's more definative than "guessing" which is what it appears your attorney is presently doing

Anyway, it's my hope that we all now have a better understanding of the basic differences between Criminal and Civil issues, that they can overlap, and how they're handled.

Thanks for the input Tracy.

[gmjunkie]

Originally Posted by Shadow

If they're away for a multi day event, why not wait until the day is over, and have someone follow them back to the hotel where they park the rig?

Then, about 3-4 am (reactions are slower and most are alseep or sleeping it off), have the repo guy go snatch the rig?
Just a thought?

Thats what I do,only been shot at once!!

Most of the vehicles I sell now get a black box and a set of keys sent to the finance co. if it's financed!!
Can be tracked and shut down by computer anywhere she sets!!

[Bob K]

Originally Posted by Shadow

If they're away for a multi day event, why not wait until the day is over, and have someone follow them back to the hotel where they park the rig?

Then, about 3-4 am (reactions are slower and most are alseep or sleeping it off), have the repo guy go snatch the rig? Just a thought?

I don't think there is a hotel. They probably stay in the motor home. Just a guess.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Bob K

I don't think there is a hotel. They probably stay in the motor home. Just a guess.

Could be. It was just a SWAG on my part. Any way you cut it, at some time, that rig is going to be vulnerable

Originally Posted by gmjunkie

Thats what I do,only been shot at once!!
Most of the vehicles I sell now get a black box and a set of keys sent to the finance co. if it's financed!!
Can be tracked and shut down by computer anywhere she sets!!

Now that's how it's done!