The garage build.

Figured I would start a separate thread about my garage being built.

Here's a video of the first step: clearing the land and prepping the area for the slab to be poured. This was done by Welch Construction.

Intreasting

Cool Rich :thumbsup:

Friday a friend of mine (Ricky) and I went to the permit office to check on the permit for this garage. The guy in charge of this stuff wasn't there, but one of the girls said she was 99.9 percent sure that we would need to have a soil bore test done on the site. Sheesh, for a garage? Anyone heard of something like this? Ricky said the most headache of this whole thing would be dealing with the permit office, so I'm expecting the worst....

Yeah, and they're not known for getting in a hurry either! They'll get to it when they get to it.....

Had soil borings done on Friday. There is pipe clay at three corners of the area where the garage will go, but down between 8.5 and 9 feet. The engineer for the building doing the foundation drawings says that won't be a problem. So hopefully I'll have the drawings this week.

Had the concrete guy (Mike Smith - Custom Concrete Services) come by today and look over the site. He'll be back on Wednesday to put in the forms for the slab. He's going to do the slab first, then the 20 ft. apron afterwards. I told him the important criteria is that the slope from the apron into the garage cannot be too sharp that I can't get my cars over the lip without scraping the undercarriage. After that, he really can't do anything until I have the permit.

I will be going to the permitting office on Monday to get that started. Evidently they have it arranged that you need to get a permit to get a permit, if that makes any sense. Pretty much just a way to make an additional $30 out of everyone who wants to get a permit.

But hopefully there won't be any major headaches with this. From what some people are saying, as long as the engineer doing the foundation drawings states that the pipe clay will not be an issue with the foundation and states such in the documents, then there won't be any problems. But we'll see....

Hit my first snag...

I've been asking around about a concrete person to do my slab for the garage, and found a guy by the name of Mike Smith with Custom Concrete Services who seemed to come highly recommended. So I contacted him to get the ball rolling.

Mike stopped by here last week and I told him what I wanted. 30x50 foot slab for a prefab metal building (garage/shed) with a 20 ft apron. He quoted a total price of $11K, which I thought was kind of high, but he comes highly recommended and I accepted it. After the hand shakes and words spoken about how we are both men of our word and no money needed to change hands then, he agreed to come by today and start setting up the forms while we waited for the permit (which I am working on now).

Well, he shows up this morning promptly at 8am and asks if I have anything showing the actual dimensions of the slab. I had gotten a preliminary foundation drawing on Monday from SteelMaxBuildings (this was prior to the
soil borings being sent to them), so I showed that to him. Seriously, I thought Mike was going to have a stroke. Started going on about how the foundation was WAY overkill and WAY more than what he was expecting to have to do. Now I don't know this stuff from a hill of beans, but all I do know is that I am trying to get a darn building put up and I believe the designers of the building might know something about the pad and foundation they recommend for it. So once Mike started telling me that he needed more money for that slab, I just told him to pack it up. So much for the talk of
the handshake and a deal, I guess. I would like to think the best of the guy, but honestly I felt like I was being hustled and I was not going to agree to pay more money for a job already agreed upon.

So back to square one now with this part of the plan.

Got a packet of stuff from the permit office, and this looks like it is going to be a pain in the butt as well. Lord help anyone doing something major like building a house. No damn wonder that construction is down. Probably from so many contractors going insane from the hoops they need to jump through.

So now I just got off the phone from the place supposed to do the building erection (G&L Steel Buildings) out of Quincy. There is something in the permit packet I got saying that all contractors (sub-contractors?) must be licensed in Wakulla County if they are going to be doing work in Wakulla County). So they called there to find out about it and the owner (Lucia) said that the person on the phone was just downright rude to her. Didn't want to even listen to what she was trying to say. Yeah, I saw a hint of that myself. The people in that office seem to have a chip on their shoulder for some reason. You know the type, I'm sure. More interested in trying to find things to stop you from doing what you want rather than helping you get it accomplished with the minimum of hassle and headaches.

Going to be fun....

On the slab, I can tell you for sure that the guy quoted you the absolute least expensive, simplest slab possible for a garage. This is almost always going to be less expensive and simpler than building from an engineered drawing. However, it may or may not be something that works for your intended use. You should have given him the drawing when you asked for a price in order to get a good number. But he should have asked as well. From your description of the events, I don't think he was trying to screw you, but I don't know anything about the guy.

However if you don't have the final drawings, you should just wait for them as the soil borings may affect the final slab design and you may be getting another change from the next guy. You cannot expect a contractor to agree to build one thing and then change the specs on him and expect him to make the changes for free. If it were me, I would invite three bidders to look at the site and give them a copy of your drawing and request a bid from each.

FYI, I just paid $9800 (including soil treatment, permits, etc) for a 30x48 slab for a future shop and a 24x30 parking pad off of my garage. I was supposedly 'getting a deal' because they made a mistake during construction on the house.

Man that sucks Rich !
Sorry to hear about all that...

When I bought my first land and house in C-ville I was 20yrs old (7 yrs ago) and I remember the permit people still to this day.....

RUDE AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT HELPING YOU !!!!

It took forever to get anything done with them I literally had to go stand in their office to get anything done.....calling on the phone they basically laughed at me !!!

The guy quoted me a price. I had to assume he was experienced in putting in pads for buildings of this nature and knew what he was doing. He actually showed up here this morning intending to get started, which tells me he was completely clueless about what he was doing if he was going to start digging and putting up the forms. I can't know that someone else doesn't know what they are doing. I'm having enough trouble trying to figure out what I need to know, much less someone else who is supposed to be a professional.

I've been looking over the permit packet and it is completely goofy. They have a page there that is called the "Property Owner's Permit Affidavit" which describes some interesting stipulations.

Basically is a statement that I sign claiming that I am the owner of the property covered by the permit, will be doing the work covered by the permit, know what I am doing (which is not true, but a minor detail), and take full responsibility for the codes and regulations. If the building inspector finds deficiencies, it is my responsibility to correct them. Sounds fair enough.

But now it gets odd.

In bold letters is stated:

IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR THE PROPERTY OWNER TO OBTAIN THE SERVICE OF ANY UNLICENSED TRADESMAN TO PERFORM ON ANY PROPERTY OWNER'S BUILDING PERMIT.

Now just what the heck does THAT mean? What exactly is a "tradesman" and if i am hiring him to do a job for me, and am responsible for the work that is done in relation to passing the inspections needed for the permit, who the hell cares if he is "licensed" or not?

Then we get to the section that continues the strangeness..

"I understand that.

1. State law requires construction to be done by licensed contractors, and that I have applied for a permit under the exemption to that law.
   
2. The exemption allows me, as the owner of my property, to act as my own contractor with certain restrictions even though I do not have a license. I understand that I must provide direct onsite supervision of the construction myself.
   
3. But, that I can only build or improve a one-family or two-family residence or farm outbuilding, and that I may only build or improve a commercial building provided the cost do not exceed $25,000.00.
   
4. That the building or residence must be for my use or occupancy and may not be built or substantially improved for sale or lease.
   
5. That if I sell or lease a building I built or substantially improved within one (1) year after the construction is completed, the law will presume that I built or substantially improved if (sic) for sale or lease, which is a violation of the exemption.
   
6. That I may not hire an unlicensed person to act as my contractor or to supervise people working on my building.
   
7. That construction must be done to building codes and zoning regulations.
   
8. I also understand that it is my responsibility to make sure that the people I employ have licenses requires (sic) by state law and by county or municipal licensing ordinances, I further understand that I may not delegate the responsibility for supervising work to a licensed contractor who is not licensed to perform the work that is being done. That any person working on my building who is not licensed must work under my direct supervision and must be employed by me; which means that I must deduct F.I.C.A. and withholding tax and provide workers' compensation for that employee, all as prescribed by law.
   
9. The construction must comply with all applicable laws, ordinances, building codes and zoning regulations.

I understand that any person, who violates any provisions of Chapter 49, Part 1, Florida Statute, and/or Chapter 8, Wakulla County Land Development Code, is guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable as provided by Section 75.082(4). Florida Statutes.

I dunno, but whatever laws they are talking about most certainly could be grouped under the title of "THE CONTRACTORS SECURITY PROTECTION ACT", it appears to me....

Rich Z said:

The guy quoted me a price. I had to assume he was experienced in putting in pads for buildings of this nature and knew what he was doing. He actually showed up here this morning intending to get started, which tells me he was completely clueless about what he was doing if he was going to start digging and putting up the forms. I can't know that someone else doesn't know what they are doing. I'm having enough trouble trying to figure out what I need to know, much less someone else who is supposed to be a professional.

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I'm just trying to help you out, Rich. Not trying to bust your balls. Just trying to show you how the contractor sees it from my 13+ years of experience as an engineer in commercial construction.

What you did was basically tell the guy you wanted a car. He priced up a basic car. Then when he arrived on site, you stipulated that it had to be a car, built like a tank, with x bells and whistles.

Contractors are NOT engineers, so expecting him to design a slab for your building to meet a certain code or sub soil condition that he is not aware of is a little unreasonable. I'm pretty sure he was expecting to pour a slab for a 'farm building' on good soil that would not be permitted, inspected, etc. but I could be wrong. Lots of buildings get built this way. You said that he was a professional and should know what he was doing. I'm sure he does know what he's doing if he has a good reputation and was recommended to you. There are lots of people in construction that will try to screw you over, but I really don't think this guy was trying to do so.

Basically what the permit information is saying is that you can do your own plumbing, carpentry, electrical, etc, but if you hire someone to do it and you're not going to supervise and take responsibility for their work, then they must be licensed.

I know that the permitting process is very frustrating to people that don't deal with it on a regular basis. But if anyone tells you the toughest part of a project is going to be obtaining a permit, you should look somewhere else.

But I told him exactly what the building was going to be. I mentioned about there being clay involved, and I was waiting for foundations drawings after doing the soil borings. He knew it was a prefabricated steel building. He knew the dimensions. He knew pipe clay was involved.

*As an aside, the revised drawings did not have the drawings changed at all. Merely had text added on a page with some descriptions stating that the bore samples did not uncover anything that would impact the foundation design, as presented. Based on what I have seen, the foundation was already designed far above the minimum specs to deal with something like that.

My concern is that based on his reaction, he had no intention of building a foundation anywhere near as sturdy as the one called for in the plans. Perhaps he is not really a bad guy and just over ambitious and jumped the gun a bit. But still, had he gotten to digging out the footers and supports and gotten the forms in place, THEN the design had shown up, what then? For all I knew, the foundation design was standard and everyone did it that way. And based on his jumping right into it and accepting the verbal contract between us, I certainly thought that this was the case.

If there is anything actually bad about the whole thing, it's that I really don't know what he intended on doing without having anything at all to go on when the first spade of dirt would have come out of the ground. Bad? Perhaps not. Smart? Definitely NOT.

I am perfectly willing to supervise the work and take full responsibility for who I hire to do it. I don't have a problem with that. Obviously I don't know what the heck I am doing, but if all the steps along the way are inspected, and the people doing the work follow the plans to the letter and do work of a quality that will pass the permit required inspections as well as my own judgment of what I THINK should be done, then I don't have a problem with it. If I make a mistake in judgment that causes problems down the road, then that is my problem to have to deal with and I am quite willing to take that hit directly on the chin without shedding a tear over it.

But if anyone tells you the toughest part of a project is going to be obtaining a permit, you should look somewhere else.

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Maybe things are different in your area, but to a person, everyone HERE has said that the permit process IS and WILL BE the worst part by far of this whole process. Personally I'm hoping they are wrong, but something tells me that they will not be.

Rich Z said:

But I told him exactly what the building was going to be. I mentioned about there being clay involved, and I was waiting for foundations drawings after doing the soil borings. He knew it was a prefabricated steel building. He knew the dimensions. He knew pipe clay was involved.

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Here is the problem with that. There are many more than one way to skin a cat. If you don't give him the drawings to begin with, he's going to price it doing it his way. In all honesty, he may have been able to talk to a structural engineer about doing it his way and the engineer may have said it would be fine.

*As an aside, the revised drawings did not have the drawings changed at all. Merely had text added on a page with some descriptions stating that the bore samples did not uncover anything that would impact the foundation design, as presented. Based on what I have seen, the foundation was already designed far above the minimum specs to deal with something like that.

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Well, maybe that means it was 'over designed' before they knew what the soil was like? This might sound good to you, but if it cost 50% more to do it that way and you didn't NEED to do it that way you might not be as happy.

My concern is that based on his reaction, he had no intention of building a foundation anywhere near as sturdy as the one called for in the plans. Perhaps he is not really a bad guy and just over ambitious and jumped the gun a bit. But still, had he gotten to digging out the footers and supports and gotten the forms in place, THEN the design had shown up, what then? For all I knew, the foundation design was standard and everyone did it that way. And based on his jumping right into it and accepting the verbal contract between us, I certainly thought that this was the case.

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As I eluded to above, his way may have exceeded the requirements but not have been the same way the engineer was calling for. Its not very likely, but its possible.

Honestly if he had started working and you brought plans to him after he had significant work in place and said "build it like this", you would have been liable for the work he would have to redo based on the new plans.

If there is anything actually bad about the whole thing, it's that I really don't know what he intended on doing without having anything at all to go on when the first spade of dirt would have come out of the ground. Bad? Perhaps not. Smart? Definitely NOT.

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This is a problem when people that don't normally do this type of thing (act as a general contractor) try to do it. They get quotes from contractors without clearly defining the scope of work. I would have asked him specifically what how he had originally planned to build the slab.

Maybe things are different in your area, but to a person, everyone HERE has said that the permit process IS and WILL BE the worst part by far of this whole process. Personally I'm hoping they are wrong, but something tells me that they will not be.

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My area has included literally millions of square feet of buildings from Louisianna to South FL and lots of different clients. I've heard people say the same thing, but its always people that don't normally deal with the permitting process. And I agree that it can be very annoying and difficult, just like dealing with any government entity. But the reality of it is that its just paperwork.

I would be glad to do anything I can to help you during this process. I have made plenty of mistakes along the way and like to think I learned a thing or two. The best advice I can give you is to use guys that are licensed and clearly define the scope of work to your subs before agreeing to a price.

A friend of mine dropped by tonight who actually IS an engineer. He's been helping me along with all this stuff. Well he took a look at the foundation drawing and said it was pretty much what he would have expected the foundation to be like. Maybe a little heftier than normal, but nothing as extravagant as Mr. Smith was alluding to by the show he put on.

I also had a second guy stop by today to talk to me about doing the concrete work and I showed him the drawing. He, too, didn't see anything unusual in it and didn't blink an eye at all. He was supposed to call me back in a few hours (this was around 11:30am or so ) to give me a price, but apparently he found other things more pressing to do. Not that I got a good feeling about him. He says he hasn't done any concrete work for two years and has just been out fishing the entire time. I would guess he doesn't have a valid license any longer, either, and he stated that he felt he had probably had all his accounts with the concrete suppliers lapse by now. I didn't get a very warm and fuzzy from that one at all. But at least I got the feedback about the foundation that was helpful.

Nope. My opinion is that Mr. Smith decided to put on a show to try to squeeze more money out of me by making the appearance that the foundation was something very extraordinary and therefore much more expensive. Unfortunately for him, it failed, and he had to find something else to do with his time (and that of the crew he had there) today. Maybe he just felt he quoted too low of a price (total was $11,000 for the 30x50 slab, and the 20x50 apron in front) and needed to try to get more money. But he just picked the wrong way to approach me about that.

On another front, G&L Steel is apparently out for doing the erection (man I always feel FUNNY when I say or type that word...) for me. Connie specifically remembered the owner telling us while she was here that they were licensed and insured, but now it has come out that they actually do NOT have a license. So tomorrow I'm going to be contacting the permit office to see if I can get a list of licensed concrete and steel building erection people and go back to square one with getting price quotes.

Just been a piss poor day today for me rubbing elbows with out and out liars. And I thought all the two legged snakes were in the reptile business I work in. :nonod:

It sounds like Mr. Smith was more of a driveway and sidewalk type of concrete guy than a building slab guy. Good thing you found out sooner than later! I'd be interested in hearing what the slab prices are from guys that have the drawings.

Also glad to hear you have an engineer helping you with everything. Good luck with the build.

Hey Rich, contact L.B. Brooks (owner of Brooks Concrete in Panacea) at 984-5279 and tell him what you're building. I'm sure he can tell you who's capable of doing the work. He's been in business down here for many years.

85vette said:

Hey Rich, contact L.B. Brooks (owner of Brooks Concrete in Panacea) at 984-5279 and tell him what you're building. I'm sure he can tell you who's capable of doing the work. He's been in business down here for many years.

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Thanks, I'll do that.

Darrell at SteelMaxBuildings says they can delay shipment of the building if necessary, but with the original delivery date of October 7th and the St. Augustine get together on the week of October 19th, it's going to be dicey, for sure. Plus Chris is thinking the first part of October will be when my new drivetrain is ready for the transplant into the C5Z.

Did I mention that I am going to be selling off all my animals from my business around this time as well? :sillyme:

October is shaping up to be more fun than a barrel full of monkeys.

Well this certainly is being a learning experience!

I feel like I've been chasing my tail for the past several days. Trying to get a concrete guy and someone to erect the building is wearing me down. Got some people I've talked to about the concrete, but nothing firmed up yet. Don't have ANYONE lined up for the building erection.

I got to feeling kind of desperate, so I contacted a general contractor who stopped by here to look at the plans and discuss taking this over from here. Well, he looked over the plans, and he wasn't too subtle about looking over the two corvettes under the carport and the house. So I could feel it coming. He wanted $7,500 to do the permit and manage the process. That, of course, was outside of the prices for the segments needing to be done (concrete, erection, electrical). A second option was for him to just pull the permit, and be available for consultation purposes for $5,000. I told him I felt that was quite high for what he would actually be giving me in return. So much for that option, and back to square one.

One of the concrete guys called me this morning. He's quoting something like $11.7K for the slab and apron. He mentioned that there was some sort of requirement for the area to be treated for termites. Yeah, right. For a completely metal building on a concrete slab. That got me to steaming a little bit. He also mentioned that a friend of his (the one with the actual license) mentioned that if my land is zoned as agricultural, I wouldn't even need a permit. Well, just so happens it is... So I need to look into this further...

It's been rather frustrating, to say the least. The permit office people want to require you to use someone licensed to do the work, but with the economy losing work for so many people, a LOT of those licensed workers let their licenses lapse because the work wasn't there, and they couldn't afford the licensing fees any longer. Now I'm not sure what is required in order to renew such a license, but it's entirely possible that this requirement for licensing may very well help KEEP such tradesmen out of work once they run out of work. Talk about unintended consequences.....

Not sure how this is all going to work out, but certainly is NOT what I had been expecting to go through for something so simple....

I believe the termite requirement applies to any permited structure. The county made us do that for our slab for the future barn at our place.

Our county requires a permit for any building except a 'farm building'. If you're parking a car under it, they don't view it as a farm building here. I'm sure your county is similar.

On the licenses....Its not that expensive to maintain your license to do work. If someone is telling you that as an excuse, I'd recommend looking elsewhere. Also the individual workers are not licensed, but the company (or sole proprietor) is.

I've reviewed the statute and there is nothing in there that demands nor implies that the building MUST be for exclusive farm use. It has to be on a farm (this land has been classified as being a tree farm since before we bought it back in 1987 and we have applied for that exemption every year we have owned this property), and cannot be for even part time residential use (meaning no one can actually live or stay within the building as a resident).

The Advisory Legal Opinion AGO 2001-71 (http://myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/Opinions/4386A18F9B5715E085256AE1006783B7) goes even further to specifically state:

"For purposes of this section "nonresident farm building" means any building or structure located on a farm that is not used as a residential dwelling. Farm is as defined in s. 823.14."

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I fully comply with those statutory requirements and definitions.