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General BS forum I guess this will be for anything that would seem to be off topic in any other forum here. Just general shootin' the breeze kind of topics.

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Unread 04-26-2009, 10:30 PM   #1
Shadow
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Default Getting the country back on track

Everyone has their idea regarding what it will take to get our country back on track.

I thought I'd throw out mine and get your feedback.

Please discuss and share your opinions.

My feeling is we need to get our country back on a fiscally even keel.

We need to have government officals from all levels realize, no, understand and respect, that it's US, the CITIZENS, that placed them in that position of trust, and those same citizens that can remove them!

To accomplish this along with an almost total revamp of the system, we need to start at the lowest level of government, then work our way up the food chain.

Starting with local government and governing boards, the city councils and county commissions, up through the Mayor. From there, we'll need to work through the nonsense and self preservationist policies that keep various state administrative agencies in business. Many if not most, should be trimmed back, and combined with other agencies. Many could probably be eliminated altogether with no ill effects on society.

First, the head and each board member of each and every council, should be reminded and accept the fact that it's either the citizen who placed them in that position, or through our vote, placed someone in a position who in turn placed them.

I'm thinking a brief course or class in local governent, ethics and responsibility might be in order

Each department under thier control would be reviewed for excess cost, expenditures and project over runs.

There would necessary be checks and balances to potentially includes a citizens taxpayer board of review made up of members of the business community, These would be business people covering the entire spectrum of the business community both large and small, with no agenda other than the betterment and safety of the community and installing safeguards against job loss when other waste could and should be cut first!

A board such as this would also make it more difficult to hide abusive spending, useless programs, pork barrell projects and general waste.

We need to rid ourselves of unnecessary spending and functions that either do not work or could be outsourced to the private sector.

This kills two (2) birds with one stone by freeing up personnel to more necessary duties and creates niche markets for those qualified and with a desire to fill them. All at no cost to the taxpayer.

Lets do a review of the one section of government I'm intimately familar with...Law Enforcement.

Instead of "threatening" to lay off law enforcement officers (you listening Sheriiff Coats, Sheriff Gee?) why not trim back the divisions that are least productive and have the least ties to enforcement operations and the general overall safety of the community?

Then, outsource or privatize those areas.

Here are but a few:

Crime prevention:Jesus!!

This is a division that's way past it's prime!

Here's a thought. Why not get these guys and gals out of the business and home security "survey" business, the dog and pony/feel good public speaking business, and back on patrol where they can do more good.

It's a simple matter to set up guidelines and qualifications for private sector certification. Then, when a citizen calls for a "survey", simply advise them that you're back in the "enforcement" business, spending thier tax dollars where they will get the biggest bang for the buck, and provide them with a list of "approved vendors."

As a side benefit of this outsourcing, more jobs will be created in the private sector, with QC maintained via L/E or State oversight and qualifications committes. Recurrent training and/or CEU courses could be mandated once again creating another income stream for the State/Local government and potentially more private sector jobs in training.

And last but certainly not least, people tend to put more emphasis in what they pay for. If I pay a contractor to come out and provide a security survey, you can bet I'll likely implement at least a few of the recommendations provided. If it's free, I may not bother. I can always call you back and you'll come out again for free.

Training: Another spot where in most cases there are more personnel "permanently assigned" than truly needed.

You need an Administrative Staff, an Armorer, a Range Master and a classroom coordinator at most.

The "staff" should consist of a Major, a Lt. or Capt. (not both and most likely, neither) and a supervisor of your choice (Sgt. or Cpl.).

The rest of the "staff" should be either patrol level or civilian employees/contractors, depending on which is more cost effective! Few if any should be assigned to the division (as trainers) on a full time basis.
There are many, many well trained and highly motivated "retirees", military and others, that could fill these adjunct positions on an as needed basis in a very competent manner. Again, another job created and less money wasted by the agency.

In most departments, we have a training Major, overseeing a Training "captain", who oversees a Training "Lt." who over sees a Training "Sgt" (or 2 or 3) and each have a Corporal....you get the picture

Some departments even have a Colonel in charge of the department as well!

Add the non-ranked LEO's assigned full time to development and training and you've got a full house.

Instead, your trainers would be "old school."

They would be the guys and gals on the street who had the drive and the interest to undertake special or advanced training and become instructors.

These people would be removed from thier present assignement on an as needed basis, for the time required to conduct training, then return to their previous assignment.
Another option might be having a weapons and unarmed defense instructor or other instructor assigned to each squad or platoon. When they need to up date thier training, they simply go to the range as a group and get it done. A few hours and they're back in business.

Much of the redundant, monotonous training (ie: classroom) can be done via video/DVD or the internet.

Recruitment, Selection and screening....same idea...cut it back to necessary personnel only.
Sorry sarge, you might have to get your own coffee!

Follow a similar pattern throughout the deparments until you'vre trimmed the fat and got the number of personnel assigned non-enforcement tasks to a bare oprational minimum.

Many support operations could be outsourced locally on an as needed basis, again providing more jobs and less money lost to the taxpayer.

Vehicles/equipment: Recently the FHP was whining about not getting their "new cars" as quickly this year as last

Instead of buying fleets of new cars each year, why not look into the remanufactured police vehicles available on the market. 1/2 the price of a new car, IIRC comes with a warranty and is in new condition No, it's not a 2010 unmarked Charger.
Instead, it's a 1999 Crown Victoria, but that Crown Vic is in top flight condition, ready to do the job it's designed to do,there's no need to retrofit or change any of the equipment stands, etc because you already have them, and meets all OSHA guidelines.

No, you're not going to look as "cool" as the department with the all black unmarked Chargers but you might be able to keep more asses in the seats by doing so

Stop whining about "new cars." Hell, you don't have to buy or maintain it and you dont have to pay for fuel (maybe). Be happy you have it! It's a work vehicle, nothing more, and move on with life.

Consider lower fuel consumption vehicles for all non-eforcement and administrative personnel (Captains and above) assigned to the enforcement bureau.

Tavares just picked up a PRIUS for thier department. They just had it delivered the other day and are having it marked shortly.

I don't think I'd use if for a patrol vehicle for a number of reasons, but for the above (detectives, CSO's, Admin types, Training, etc) you betcha

Now that's forward thinking!!

Even if we stayed with non-hybrids, go to something smaller and more fuel effiicient for the above personnel.

Reducing fuel costs will go a long way in minimizing the budget.

And while discussing "Unmarked vehicles" lets take a closer look at the subject.

The job of a LEO's has always been multi-faceted, tasked with the responsibilities of:

-Enforcement
-Education
-Prevention.

Unmarked cars essentially result in two (2) things:

1) More traffic enforcement resulting in increased revenue.
2) Less law enforcement presence to both the public and the bad guy!

Of course most people can recognize the U/M car on the interstate, but with the high profile, totally marked, lighted units there's never a question.

I would place ALL of my enforcement personnel (maybe save a small handful for traffic enforcement) in MARKED CARS.

From the Corporal to the Major, if you're assigned to the enforcement side of the house, you get a marked car, PERIOD, End Of Story!!

Currently we have motorcops that have unmarked cars. Why?
Many of them spend as much if not more time in them than they do on thier bikes. This results in a motorcycle being underused. In Florida, that's just ludicrous!

If you don't want to ride, go back to a squad and we'll find someone who does.

If you need a car for enforcement (it's raining or some other reason) use a marked car!!!

Unmarked cars are being used off duty as POV's in many cases. I know most agencies require thier officers to provide some fuel or other remuneration for the use of the car for personal use or out of county travel, but does anyone really watch it? Are they really compensating the community for that off duty use?

We have TPD cars in Hernando, Citrus, Sumter, Pasco, Pinellas, Polk, Manatee and I believe I saw one in Sarasota county?

Aside from the fuel, how are the taxpayers being compensated for the wear, tear and maintenance required by the additional mileage? And believe me, these cars are not being driven lightly. It's not unusual to be passed by a TPD cruiser on the interstate headed in or out of the county about shift change at, well, lets just say a high rate of speed.

I know it's a benefit and in many cases a Union agreement. So the next thing I'd do is crap can the unions!

That said, more marked cars on the road will result in a higher omnipresence of the police. With that in mind, most "bad guys" are going to go elsewhere to commit their crime. After all, with all the marked units running around, there's just too many cops for them.

Now, lets talk benefits

It seems that gone are the days when people got into law enforcement because they cared or because they loved it.

Now its more and more "whats in it for me?"

When I joined, we were guaranteed a couple of things:

1) A take home car. Rookies got the old ones and you worked your way up to a newer one eventually. This was predicated upon the following:

a) You lived in the county, and you WOULD live in the county!
b) You used it for business uses only and were in some sort of approved uniform.

2) A Health benefits package.
3) A Retirement package.
4) Long hours, hard work and the satisfaction in knowing that you made a difference

We also understood that we worked at the pleasure of the Sheriff and that should we do something stupid, we may find ourselves unemployed or walking! No guarantees for continued employment if you acted the fool!

Overtime rules are set about by governemt now which is a positive and necessary change for law enforcement as it relates to officer safety

But I'm getting kind of tired of hearing about the $$$.

Everyone knows what they are getting into when come aboard. If the $$ and benes's don't suit you, either don't come aboard or go away! There's always someone that wants to do the job!

The excuse of the "poor underpaid LEO" needs to go as well.

Same with how dangerous the job is as an excuse for overspending.
Of freaking course it's dangerous!
But we all knew what we were signing up for, none of us were drafted and many, continued to serve even after we stopped being paid.

Remember, any time a firearm is part of your required daily dress code, you're in a dangerous occupation

Many LEO's today are making more than most of the people here, working far less hours. Hell, my neighbor works a total of 15 days a month on a bad month! A day here and there and he's off 5-7 days out of every other week. Tough assignment.

Sure it's dangerous, unless you're assigned to one of those non-enforcement positions, but what the hell did you think you were signing up for? The scouts?

Same goes for training.

We spend hundreds of thousands of $$ every year on advanced training courses, only to watch many of those officers who partake of these courses, use that training to gain employment elsewhere.

The answer? Contracts of course!

You get advanced training, you owe the department X # of years or the cost of the training plus your salary/expenses for that period of time you were off the streets. Once your contract is fulfilled, you're free to do whatever makes you feel good work wise.

We spend tons of $$ on useless programs. Feel good training that in some instances, does nothing more than keep certain segments of the community happy.

Although the instructor made it interesting, the Human Diversity and Domestic Violence training I went through a year or so ago, was a total waste of time and money! As I said, the instructor was great!!
It was the BS she had to wade us through that was a waste!

To make it worse, the course is mandated by FDLE as part of the "refersher training."

All of that information could have been transmitted via internet/DVD to contain cost and limit manpower loss.
There was absolutely no need for a "training day" for this nonsense!

As for mandating training requirements, FDLE could probably use a good douching to clean things up and get us back to doing police work.

They need to shift more of thier emphasis on officer safety skills, weapons and hand to hand tactics and a good bit more on interpersonal communications skills (roleplaying). I know that last part sounds like foo foo but take a look at the attitudes we have with some of the youngsters on the streets today. But that's another rant for another day

Bottom line is make the training dollar count!

We can do the same sort of trimming with each division and department within the local and state government from the local boards to the State House!

These administrators are starting to sound like babies! Always "threatening" to cut services or lay of personnel.

Instead, lets look at salaries and benefits on top of the aforementioned restructuring.
We may need to freeze salaries and benefits until such time as we get our heads out of our posteriors and learn how to live within a balanced budget! Stop crying and whining about the loss of tax $$. Instead, learn how to live with it!

Learn how to "adapt, improvise & overcome" without shafting the public that placed you there.

The clerks offices around the state are again wanting to raise fees!? And again, they threaten to lay off personnel. Some Hillsborough County clerks are being "required" to take non-paid days off in lieu of being furloughed?

But take a look at the salaries being paid some of the upper management and staff! Take a look at other "perks" of the job that increase cost to the taxpayer!

But rather than make the necessary adjustments, they'd rather jack up the rates and pass the cost on to the taxpayer and user whose $$ already goes to fund the clerks office.

They (County Clerks Office) say they can't support themselves with thier current income??

The average filing fee is around $250.00 per case. Thousands of cases are filed monthly. I don't have the numbers but I'm there almost daily. I see the cases being filed first hand.

If we can't operate the clerks office from the funds coming in along with the taxes paid by the citizen, then we need to review how things are being done!
If too much of the fee's are going to special interest groups, and useless programs, then we need to stop them!

The days of the scare tatic need to come to an end! Stop with the threats to lay off employees and cut services! Stop threatening the worker and the citizen with the dooms day scenarios. Instead, learn to live withing your budget.

Once we get the local and state governments squared away, finally have those we place in power doing things that are in the best interest of the masses, then I suggest we use that same groups and thier influence to start working on the FEDERAL side. Make it clear to Washington that we're not going to blindly go along with thier foolish spending. That we're not going to be sheep, and that we'll do everything in our power to rid ourselves of thier kind in the upcoming elections, if they don't behave!

We'll have to face some tough decisions on the Federal lever. Programs will necessarily have to be cut. Operating cost will have to be slashed! Starting with the military, spending and benefits are going to have to be trimmed and frozen for a bit. Thats going to hurt a bit.
Pork projects are going to have to go away! Again, an oversight panel could ensure that.

Speaking of the military, why did we (those of us that have BTDT in the past or recent) volunteer in the first place? (I left out the Vietnam era guys and gals because many of those great folks didn't volunteer...they were volunteered!)

We did it (I hope) out of patriotism! Sure, many want the educational benefits and the job training and that's certainly a perk of the job. It serves a dual purpose by keeping our military strong and ready while at the same time, providing job training for the service person for when they detach.

But I knew what I was doing and what I was volunteering for when I raised my right hand and spoke the words. I also knew what the pay was.

I'm sorry its so crappy, but that's the way it is for now. I doubt it'll ever really get much better (pay wise) to make it comperable to the private sector. Then again, the private sector doesn't have access to free health care, travel benefits at government expense and an almost guaranteed job for life

You pay one way or the other. Cash or sweat equity, and the military earns and deserves, every dime they get!!

But stop using the risks and injuries to promote unbridled spending and projects!!
As with law enforcement, firefighting and any other emergency service, it has inherrent risk by it's very nature.

I'm not willing to give away the farm out of sympathy. It's time to buckle down and get serious. Time to think with our heads not our hearts.

I believe we have an obligation to take care of our returning troops merely due to the "contract" they entered into upon swearing in. Let s spend the money to make sure that "quality" care is provided.

Finally, I care about our community and our country! I care about saving JOBS!! and providing continued service to the community!

I care about the security of our country. But STOP using those things as tools, bait if you will, to increase taxes, increase spending and and circumvent the rights of the people!!

Sound like I've had about enough?

Get the country back on track fiscally by managing not taxing and spending and the rest will fall into place naturally

What do you think?

G-
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Unread 04-27-2009, 08:28 PM   #2
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Man Shadow, where does someone begin to respond. Great insight into our local government/agencys from someone inside.

All I can digest at first blush is in your first paragraph. Term Limits. When our elected political reps. believe they have a job instead of a duty to those who elected them they've been there to long.
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Unread 04-27-2009, 08:55 PM   #3
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I agree with much of what you said. I could confirm, and even add some in regards to $$$ issues and other problems/solutions, but being I'm currently employed at the pleasure of an elected official and need to remain so...the issue that I see as an obstacle to overcome is...how do you get all 67 county Sheriff's on the same page??? A mandate from the Gov?
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Unread 04-27-2009, 10:36 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by 85vette View Post
I agree with much of what you said. I could confirm, and even add some in regards to $$$ issues and other problems/solutions, but being I'm currently employed at the pleasure of an elected official and need to remain so...the issue that I see as an obstacle to overcome is...how do you get all 67 county Sheriff's on the same page??? A mandate from the Gov?
You hit it right onthe head!

The Sheriff in this scenario, would be required to meet certain budetary guidelines after parrying down the department as indicated previous.

If he (or she as we have in at least one county) can't or won't play the game, the Governor would step in and issue a mandate.

Barring unforseen natural disaters and the $$ necessary to handle them, no additional funding would be provided to run the department when/if the allocated funds run out.

ALL expenditures over a certain amount, would be reviewed by the BOCC and an independent panel. Justifications for anything not previously budgeted for would necessarily be extreme! Unless the need is absolutely officer safety driven and can not be accomplished any other way, then it would likely be turned down.

This same scenarion will work for both large and small entities, cities and counties and every department within state and local government. I use law enforcement, and the Sheriff's Office because I'm intimately familiar with the way they work.

In years past, the Sheriff, if he didn't get his way with the BOCC, just high tailed it to Tallahassee and got the $$ from the State Legislature. That has to stop!

We as a government can not continue to hold our hands out and expect them to be filled without question. We can't necessarily continue to buy exotic and high end equipment without first seeing if there is something more local and cost effective that can be used.

Stop wasting taxpayer $$ on BS!!

Any of us remember the days when we had to "expend" any ammo left at the end of the fiscal year? Otherwise, the budget was cut that much the following year?

We've got to get our governments under control! Republican, Democrat, Independent, I don't care...ALL have to work together for the betterment of the country, or we'll all go down the tubes together

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Unread 04-27-2009, 10:38 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Mannings View Post
Man Shadow, where does someone begin to respond. Great insight into our local government/agencys from someone inside.

All I can digest at first blush is in your first paragraph. Term Limits. When our elected political reps. believe they have a job instead of a duty to those who elected them they've been there to long.
Yes sir.

It's time to turn the tables.

Yes mofo! You do work for us and at our pleasure! F-it up again and you'll be out looking for a lobbying job by the end of the next session!~
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Unread 04-29-2009, 04:07 AM   #6
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I agree with a lot of that. I think a 2, 3 term limit (max) for senator and the like is definitely in order. I can't really see a good argument against that anyway. It's not like someone elected to represent the people of a certain era will be the only one to be able to do the job, anybody could do that really. The only thing experience gets you is knowledge on how to pull in "questionable revenue".

The unmarked cars... I agree with that. I think unmarked cars should be used for specific operations, not general patrols. If you are going to bust somebody who skipped parole, I can see the need to be a bit harder to see. Same with setting up a drug bust or anything like that. If you want to have people do the speed limit then they should be visible! I bet that the marked cruisers cost a lot less to get too, especially compared to those newer Chargers.

One thing I disagree with is the firefighters... one of the few professions that makes me respect the ones doing the job. I'm not for stupid spending levels, but a very comfortable health care package and good pay for firefighters is something that I am willing to pay taxes for. I think there's a lot of fat to cut elsewhere before we mess with them too much.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 08:20 AM   #7
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...One thing I disagree with is the firefighters... one of the few professions that makes me respect the ones doing the job. I'm not for stupid spending levels, but a very comfortable health care package and good pay for firefighters is something that I am willing to pay taxes for. I think there's a lot of fat to cut elsewhere before we mess with them too much.
I"m not quite sure I follow you? are you referring to this:

Quote:
Instead, lets look at salaries and benefits on top of the aforementioned restructuring.
We may need to freeze salaries and benefits until such time as we get our heads out of our posteriors and learn how to live within a balanced budget! Stop crying and whining about the loss of tax $$. Instead, learn how to live with it!
Learn how to "adapt, improvise & overcome" without shafting the public that placed you there.
If so, I'm going to have to stand by that for now. Again, we're going to have to make some very difficult and heart wrenching decisions and some that may be "uncomfortable" at best, if we want to get our country back on track!

Believe me, I'm not suggesting that we cut benefits for anyone at this point. I do suggest that the entire system be reviewed and see if there are better benefit packages that can be had for less $$ without giving up quality?

I don't think I specified FireFighters in my tiradeIt was geared toward law enforcement because that's what I'm familiar with. But I also have a lot of friends in the fire/rescue services and I definitely respect the dangers they face on a regular basis. You won't catch me volunteering to go running toward a fire on a regular basis I'd rather dodge bullets!

That said, take a look at the pay and benefit package of most larger fire services. Not bad

Shifts are 24 on, 48 off, excellent pay and benes and limited restrictions on off duty business ventures
So I don't really see a concern here for the moment?

However, not that long ago, the firefighters union here in Tampa essentially tried to hold the Mayor hostage over a pay raise issue. In her defense, she crunched the numbers and found that if we did what they asked, we'd have to start laying off personnel from other divisions .

Did they care?

Not in the least. They launched a campaign and the city council voted for the increases despite what the Mayor had to say???

Now, could we make up those dollar losses by reducing "stuff" and "fluff?"

Probably At least to a degree.

But the underlying issue is that no one was willing to work together for the short term, for the good of the community as a whole, rather than just looking out for themselves!

It's that sort of attidue, the "me first" line of thought, that will prevent us as a country from getting back on track

My take on it is, you will NEVER be able to pay anyone enough to risk their not coming home to their families at the end of a shift; but you also have to remember that unlike our Vietnam era brothers/sisters, many of whom were thrown into harms way by virtue of a draft, every one of us that have been in the emergency services field, are volunteers

Be it a firefighter, rescue person, police officer or what have you, we all volunteered and we all knew the risks and rewards (personally and financially).

If anything, what we DIDN'T realize were the political risks and frustrations associated with the job. I truly believe that those contribute more to the "stress of the job" than just about anything that happens on the street!

Even with the smaller agencies (and I worked for one of those too!), you still knew what you were getting into when you came aboard. Most people enter the smaller agencies only to gain experience and training to move up to larger ones. Again, if you want the "advanced training" be ready to commit to a few years to pay it back!

So for now, I still say we freeze everything until we're back on track. Review contracts with outside vendors, and get the most for the least without giving up quality.

Once we're fiscally back on track, then we can slowly start revising pay & benefit packages as we see a justifiable "need." BTW, the term "NEED" is the operative word. I'm tired of the unions telling us what they "want." What do you "need" and why? will get my attention and support quicker than anything else
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Unread 04-29-2009, 08:45 AM   #8
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I agree with your postion wholeheartedly. You've certainly given alot of thought to the waste and BS of government waste. I would also be in favor of severe limitations of the millions spent on lobbying in this country. Unfortunately, money always talks and politicians love the green stuff lining thier pockets.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 10:53 PM   #9
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Wow....just wow. I have to commend you for all the work and thought you put into that post. It will take me a while to digest it.

It seems that it takes a certain individual to want to run for office. And it always seems to be a power trip for most of them. Maybe if there wasn’t a pension included, that might keep some from making a career out of “public service”. I like term limits but I worry that the work will end up being done by the employees rather than the elected representative (like it's not already).

Isn't it interesting how they always threaten to make cuts in the most visible part? We're going to have to lay off cops, firemen, and teachers. Never once do they look where the real waste is. It doesn’t scare the public very much when you announce laying off 5 people in the city garage does it. But close down a firehouse!!! Those politicians always know what’s good for us, don’t they.

IMO, there are two things that would go a long way to help put this country back on the right track.

1. Dump political parties. Washington warned of the dangers of political parties. Parties allow the ignorant to play on Election Day. All they have to do is look for the letter after the name and BINGO, they know who to vote for, just look at Specter. While the public argue politics like it's the Yankees and Red Sox, the players inside the beltway laugh at all of us.

2. The FairTax. FairTax is a national sales tax that replaces our income tax. The beauty of this is that EVERYONE contributes to the federal budget not just half of us. This would also put an end to lobbyists since there is no income tax, there is no need to lobby for tax loopholes. I urge you to look at www.fairtax.org
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Unread 04-29-2009, 11:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Coastal View Post
Wow....just wow. I have to commend you for all the work and thought you put into that post. It will take me a while to digest it.

It seems that it takes a certain individual to want to run for office. And it always seems to be a power trip for most of them. Maybe if there wasn’t a pension included, that might keep some from making a career out of “public service”. I like term limits but I worry that the work will end up being done by the employees rather than the elected representative (like it's not already).

Isn't it interesting how they always threaten to make cuts in the most visible part? We're going to have to lay off cops, firemen, and teachers. Never once do they look where the real waste is. It doesn’t scare the public very much when you announce laying off 5 people in the city garage does it. But close down a firehouse!!! Those politicians always know what’s good for us, don’t they.

IMO, there are two things that would go a long way to help put this country back on the right track.

1. Dump political parties. Washington warned of the dangers of political parties. Parties allow the ignorant to play on Election Day. All they have to do is look for the letter after the name and BINGO, they know who to vote for, just look at Specter. While the public argue politics like it's the Yankees and Red Sox, the players inside the beltway laugh at all of us.

2. The FairTax. FairTax is a national sales tax that replaces our income tax. The beauty of this is that EVERYONE contributes to the federal budget not just half of us. This would also put an end to lobbyists since there is no income tax, there is no need to lobby for tax loopholes. I urge you to look at www.fairtax.org



The problem?

It all makes too much sense
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