• Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.

427 engine (part 2) - RHS block

The more I think about it, the less thrilled I am about just getting the same sort of starter sent to me and putting what might be just another piece of crap on my car. I'm going to see if I can get a refund instead from Rock Auto. If that fails, then I may just go ahead and get a *new* aftermarket starter (perhaps MSD if it looks like it will fit OK) and just sell the replacement ACDELCO starter for whatever I can get for it.

So we'll see how things look when I pull that starter out. I tried the test with having the headlights on when I tried the starter, and since the headlights don't dim, the battery seems OK. Can't see any reason why the engine would have locked up just by stalling it trying to create the drive train noise, but who the heck knows? Maybe Murphy pissed into one of my engine cylinders? So maybe I'll see if I can turn the engine just to make sure before pulling the starter. If the engine is locked up, then no sense pulling the starter off. It's bonfire time!
 
Sigh... :o

Well, here I went and stuck my foot in my mouth again.

I've got the passenger side header off, and was about to start removing the starter. That's when I noticed that the nut holding the hot wire from the battery to the solenoid was only barely finger tight. Damn.... I had read a bunch of warnings about not over tightening those nuts, and I guess I just went too easy on the wrench fearing I would snap the solenoid studs. I guess the nut was just tight enough to carry enough current to click the solenoid, but nothing else. I actually had Connie look down at those terminals while I tried to start it to look for a spark that would indicate a loose connection, but she didn't see anything. Maybe it wasn't quite THAT loose, just loose enough to be a pain in the butt. Sheesh....

And of course I have a new MSD starter on the way from Summit Racing as I write this. :rolleyes:

Ah well, I think I would have had to do everything I did today anyway to get to those nuts to tighten down. I might have been able to get a wrench down there without removing anything, but it would have been pretty close to magic to do it. Replacing a starter and just tightening the nuts on the solenoid studs requires just about as much work on my car. THIS time around I am going to use the torque specs I just found!

Live and learn I guess. Poor Connie has been scared to death that she broke my engine.

Oh well, it looks like I still had an exhaust leak anyway, so just as well I pulled the exhaust down. Not that I wouldn't have rathered be doing something else today.
 
Yeah, but I'm getting tired of being the bug....

I think I'm going to go ahead and pull this starter and put the MSD in when I get it. It's supposed to be able to turn the engine over quicker, and honestly I noticed this reman sounds like it is straining. Battery is at full charge since I charged it up the other day.

Besides, it's going to be VERY cool having a bright red starter down there where no one can see it. :hehehe:
 
Got the new MSD stater installed.

MSD_starter_01.jpg



MSD_starter_02.jpg



I found out that this starter is slightly wider than the stock starter, so the passenger side header will no longer just slip in and out. I had to remove the mounting bolts to get the header back in.

I tested the starter before putting the header back in, and I think I like the sound of the MSD better than the stock starter. I torqued the nuts on the solenoid studs down to the specs I found. 11 ft/lbs for the large nut holding the hot wire from the battery, and 37 inch/lbs for the small terminal from the ignition switch. The install instructions from MSD didn't say anything about torque specs for the electrical stuff, but the mounting bolts they listed as 32 ft/lbs to torque them down. I also put nord-lock washers on them to keep them from coming loose anytime soon.

Found out that the exhaust flanges connecting the pipes to the catback pipe going over the axles were warped a bit, causing the gaskets to not seal properly. I took a file to them and looks like I've got them pretty much with a flush and flat surface. Hopefully I will only have to use one gasket instead of the three I have been having to use. Just have to make sure that the flanges going onto the back of the headers are covering the slots in the pipes completely to seal up all the exhaust leaks. Seems that every time I have to take off the exhaust it's a bitch getting the exhaust leaks eradicated.

Hopefully I'll have it all back together tomorrow. Then I can get back to trying to figure out where exactly that drive train noise is coming from.
 
Well, today didn't go as well as I had hoped.

Yeah, I got the car all back together again, but when I was checking for anything laying against the passenger side header, yep I found something. The new MSD starter was laying against one of the primary tubes.

MSD_starter_tight_01.jpg


Now being close is one thing, but I seriously doubt it would bode well for longevity of that starter with a header tube laying right up against it. The heat from the header would be directly transferred to that starter body. Not to mention that the header tube was pushing against the unsupported end of the starter, so how much stress is being applied to the bolts holding the starter to the block? That can't be good.

Being a firm believer in Murphy's Law, I started sweating it. The entire reason I was doing all this starter crap was because of the slight chance of the stock starter breaking the thin mounting flange, and then the thicker flange taking out the part of the block it attached to. So I went through a Powermaster starter that the wiring would not attach to. Then the nut on the positive battery cable running to the starter solenoid loosened up. Now the MSD starter just won't fit without it's own issues. Was this going to be the third strike if I did a "let's see if it works ok"? Wouldn't that have been a pisser if THAT broke the starter mounting area on the block? Murphy works like that.

I did notice that when I was putting everything together that I could not slide that LG Motorsports Pro long tube header into place like I could with the stock starter. I had to actually remove the starter mounting bolts to get the header back in again, unlike with the stock starter. I didn't feel that was any big deal. Not until I discovered that the MSD starter had to be considerably thicker across in order to have the header tube actually touching it. So that also explained why the header wouldn't slide in place like it should have.

So I had everything finished, but..... Walking back from the garage after getting this done, I just did not feel GOOD about the job. I dunno, sort of had a feeling of impending doom or something. So after dwelling on it and realizing I was going to be fretting over this all night long, I went back over to the garage and took the exhaust off and got everything off the passenger side of the engine that was in the way of loosening up the header. And that's what I did. Just loosened it up to take any stress that it might be putting on the end of the starter. I'll deal with the rest of it tomorrow when I put that reman ACDELCO starter back in and call it a day. Had my fill trying to put an aftermarket starter on the car. I know when something is trying to tell me something.

Interestingly enough, I'm getting pretty quick at this changing out starters stuff lately. I had the exhaust off, plugs, coils, and wiring off, and the bolts loosened on the header in about a half hour. It's a lot easier and faster when you know what size all the bolts are when you are doing something like this.

Hope I didn't bung up the MSD starter too bad putting it in so Summit Racing will take it back. They are normally pretty good about returns, but I know I at least damaged the label on the side showing the model number trying to shoehorn that header in before realizing it just was NOT going to go in without getting the starter out of the way first. So we'll see how that goes. Sure would have having a $300 doorstop if I have to eat it.

BTW, I checked online and couldn't find a thing about any sort of incompatibility with this MSD starter and any brand of headers. So I guess it was just my lucky day.... :nonod:
 
Well, I contacted Summit Racing, explained the situation, including that I had bunged up the MSD starter somewhat, and they told me I could return it anyway. Them's is good people to deal with... :thumbsup:

So I got the ACDELCO starter back in. I sure have gotten a whole lot of experience replacing starters in a very short time.

starter_acdelco_01.jpg



starter_acdelco_02.jpg



Got it wrapped up with a heat shield all nice and purty. I checked the clearance between this starter and the primary header tube and there is a good 3/4s of an inch clearance there. So that MSD starter is quite a bit larger in diameter than the stock starter is.

starter_acdelco_03.jpg



starter_acdelco_04.jpg



I can't believe that I haven't read ANYTHING about anyone else having clearance problems between the MSD starter and headers. Even with brands other than LG Motorsports, I can't imagine that there is going to be that much difference in clearance issues around the starter. There really just isn't a whole lot of room to play with there. And looking at this from another angle, I can't believe that MSD wouldn't have designed the starter with headers taken into consideration. What's the chances that someone would put in an aftermarket starter and NOT also have headers in their car?

The passenger side header went in very easily with the ACDELCO starter in place, so that is in and all bolted up now. Connie helped me by holding up the tail end of the header while I got the bolts starter. I think she likes being on the creeper underneath the car. She says it feels cozy there. I had the car on the lift just high enough for her to get under the car, which stands underneath the lift arms for safety. Then I had to put a step stool next to the engine compartment so I could reach in and get to the header bolts. Awkward, but doable.

Anyway, got the ignition stuff back in too, and all the wiring dressed up neatly and protected from the heat from the headers. Did a test crank of the starter, and even with the fuel pumps disabled the engine still tried to start on me, as some cylinders were firing off. So the car appears to be tired of being on the lift.

So I just have to put the exhaust pipes between the headers and cat back pipes back in and check for exhaust leaks and I'll be back where I started trying to zero in where that intermittent drive train noise is coming from.
 
Well, I had to put two gaskets on each of those exhaust flanges, one of which is an extra thick stainless steel gasket, and I found that I still have a slight leak. So it will apparently take three (3) gaskets to get them to seal up right. That's even after filing down the flanges on the LGM rear pipes trying to get them flush and straight. I checked with a straight edge and those flanges are definitely warped, which is why I have been having a devil of a time getting them sealed up properly. No idea how that happened, but with everything else this car has been through, I don't know why I would think this would surprise me. Heck, I don't think even over tightening those flange bolts would produce the type of warping I am seeing. It's not just the flanges at the bolt holes being bent out, it's like the flanges themselves got twisted somehow. I tried taking pics to show that I mean, but it just doesn't show what I can see by eyeball.

Anyway, I ordered new rear pipes from LG Motorsports and they showed up today. Got the old ones off, but decided to order new exhaust clamps, since I don't know how many times the two chop shops might have tightened and over tightened them. Plus I noticed that the gaskets I have (2.5" hole, 2 bolt, 4 inches between bolt hole centers) have a raised lip around the exhaust pipe hole, and if that gasket is even slightly off center, that lip just will not seal properly between the flanges. So I decided to order new gaskets with 2.75" holes so that alignment won't be so critical.

So the car is on ice till those clamps and gaskets come in. Not that the C5Z isn't used to living on the lift or anything.... :rolleyes:

I posted another thread (http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106200) showing the video I took trying to either solidify the theory that it is the clutch making the drivetrain noise, or else provide evidence that it is from something else. Certainly seems to be originating from the clutch as best I can tell. I think that the Centerforce clutch is just real noisy, probably from those weights on the fingers of the clutch that are used to press the pressure plate harder against the disk because of the action of centrifugal force acting upon them. At slow speeds, they probably are just rattling around and chattering, which might be what the noise is coming from when I release the clutch pedal.

If it's just an irritation and aggravation, I might just live with it for as long as I can instead of jumping right in with a clutch replacement. I figure I've got about 6,000 miles on this clutch, so I might as well use it as long as I can.
 
Well, I guess I should update this situation with the drive train noise. It's gotten progressively worse, and is not nearly as intermittent as it used to be. And in addition to sounding off when I start off from a dead stop, it is not beginning to express itself when I am shifting gears. I am feeling a very pronounced sort of vibration when I put the shifter into gear. Honestly, if it turns out to be a transmission problem instead of a clutch problem, I won't be real surprised.

I really don't even want to drive the car any longer, as the noise is not only just really irritating, but when I take it to the local car show, it's downright embarrassing. Connie has commented that it embarrasses her too, so it's time to either get this fixed, or sell it. Would hate to sell it after all I've been through with it, and it runs extremely strong otherwise, but if I don't want to drive it, then what is the sense of keeping it? So it is just time to do something about it.

Anyway, call me a weenie for not wanting to do this myself, but I've asked Greg at AntiVenom if he could take a look and tackle this problem for me. He said that he would, but he's not sure when as he already has 6 prior jobs he has to get out of the way first. Yeah, I know, I bought transmission jacks and have a lift and all that, but it would be just Connie and myself doing the job, and I am just VERY reluctant for us to be handling that much weight when the drivetrain comes out of the car. I sure as heck don't want one of us to get injured in the process, because at our age, it could be a serious injury that could affect us perhaps permanently and put a real damper on our remaining retirement years. Just doesn't make sense at this stage in our lives to take this sort of risk. I'm sure it will be more money than I would like to put into this car again, and it is coming out of my social security checks now, but I guess it just is what it is. The smart thing would be to just sell it, but obviously I haven't made a lot of smart decisions when it came to that car.

Honestly, I'm still not exactly sure where Greg's new shop is located, however. I've got his new address, and tried to locate it on Google Maps, but darn if I can see any indication of it on a road map, satellite image, or ground view. He says it is behind Stingray's Bar and Grille, so at least I have a landmark to look for. Hopefully there is a sign on the building or nearby somewhere.

I'm trying to get a rough idea from Greg as to when he thinks I'll be able to bring the car down to him, but so far haven't gotten any reply to my emails asking that of him.

So hopefully Greg can help me out and get this fixed. Speaking of which, I'm hoping I can drive it down to his place without any disabling drivetrain failure. It's about a 250 mile hike, so I know I'm going to be on pins and needles the entire drive.
 
That your noise issue has gotten so bad. How many miles have you put on it since you got it "drivable"? I know it's been a while but I didn't think you drove it much. Does your drive shaft have u joints or CV joints?
 
85vette said:
That your noise issue has gotten so bad. How many miles have you put on it since you got it "drivable"? I know it's been a while but I didn't think you drove it much.
Click to expand...

Beats me, but you are right, it wasn't much. I think I only put 600 miles on the car last year. How many years has it been since I had the torque tube and clutch replaced? Maybe 3,000 miles all total?

85vette said:
Does your drive shaft have u joints or CV joints?
Click to expand...

Neither. They actually call the drive shaft a "drive propeller". It is a one piece shaft contained within the torque tube that only has shock absorbing couplers that go between the propeller shaft and the rest of the drivetrain. One fore and one aft, if I remember correctly.

I had the entire torque tube replaced when it was at the local Chevy dealership. I had the TT couplers replaced with new ones, since it was a used torque tube assembly, but did not have the TT bearings replaced. They are a possible source of the drivetrain noise, of course.

I'm sure I have pics somewhere in this thread of the torque tube. When the car was at Chris Harwood's place, he put a Pfadt carbon fiber drive shaft in for me. Unfortunately, Pfadt sent him a shaft that was 7mm too long for the application, and caused all sorts of damage. Which is why Shane at the Chevy dealership had to replace so many components in the drivetrain. I'm thinking it may be possible that the input shaft bearing in the transmission may have gotten damaged too, when the driveshaft was flopping around in the torque tube. But that is something Greg would likely be able to determine for me.

One other reason I don't want to do this job myself is because I really don't know what the problem is, and am damn afraid I would have to just replace SOMETHING, and put it back together again to see if the noise went away. And if it didn't? Hell, take it apart and replace something else. Thanks, but NO thanks. I would rather have an expert who knows what he is doing do this job for me.
 
That's right, I forgot they moved the transmission back to the differential. Yeah, I don't blame you. I would hate to have to do that job more than once. Good luck and let us know what it ends up being.
 
Well, honestly, I am about ready to give up on Greg Lovell at AntiVenom. I have sent multiple emails and even tried to contact him through his Facebook page asking about when he might be able to take my car in to work on it. No responses whatsoever. So I'm beginning to think he is just blowing me off and I need to look elsewhere for help.

Yeah, I know I should try calling him on the phone, but after the history of shops I have gone through with this car, I learned to try to get everything in writing of some sort. You just never know how things are going to go and you may really want to refer back to what was actually "said".

Anyway, I haven't driven the car for a while now, so this is getting to be pretty aggravating.

I sent an email to the Trans Am Depot outfit out near the airport to see if by chance they did general maintenance and repair work on other vehicles, but I don't have high hopes for that. And I also contacted Mike Carnahan of Vengeance Racing up in Cumming Georgia to see about maybe transporting the car up there. I'm thinking transporting it rather than driving it through Atlanta might be a wise idea. Depends on the cost, I guess. But I checked out Vengeance Racing and they seem to be highly regarded in the reviews I have read.

Also might consider taking the car back to the local Chevy dealership and see if I can get Shane (who is now the service manager there) to take a look at the car and figure out what I am dealing with. Not sure I would want to do a "let's just take it apart and see what we can find" sort of diagnosis there, however. But we'll see, I guess.

I would have liked to taken the car to Greg, but I am damned sight not going to chase someone down and wrestle them to the ground to try to give them my business. Unfortunate, but apparently his choice in how he does business.
 
Rich, I have been in business 36 years, and found trying to follow up, or fix someone elses mess , never works in my favor. I wish I could help you come up with a solution, but don't have a clue where to start, other than put a for sale on that puppy.
 
Nearly all of the messes caused by Harwood and Scott have been fixed at this point. All that remains, that I know of anyway, is that drivetrain noise. Just seems that it would be foolish of me to give up now without at least taking a stab at getting this one remaining problem resolved.

Honestly, the car is a pleasure to drive and gives you white knuckles when you push it. And for all I know I could drive it thousands of more miles with nothing more than that aggravating noise without having something just outright fail in the drivetrain. I mean, I have had that noise ever since I got the car back from Aaron Scott, sometimes worse than others. But honestly I couldn't swear it was the SAME noise the entire time. Since that time, the flywheel, clutch, pilot bearing, throwout bearing and slave cylinder, torque tube and driveshaft, have all been replaced. But Murphy's Law can be a SOB sometimes. I have to admit that it is not impossible that the torque tube that was replaced had a bad bearing in it, caused by that Pfadt driveshaft, making noise, and the one put in at the Chevy dealership (which was a used unit) has the same sort of problem. It happens. Lord knows I have had my share of computer trouble shooting where I would put in a board or component that had the same problem as the one I pulled out. Drives you nuts, but it does happen.

I'm not asking anyone to take on anyone else's messes. I have a car with a drivetrain noise that I want to have fixed. Something is making the noise, and I need that something to be either repaired or replaced. Surely someone is capable and competent enough to do that? Or at least competent enough to be able to TELL me what the problem actually is?
 
I was browsing around on CorvetteForum last night, and found a thread from a guy apparently having some clutch noise problems. He took some short videos with an audio track which makes the noise pretty evident if you cut back the bass on your speakers.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgBXK9GHZD4




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_XM8qdnvoU

Then I went back and found a video I did a while back showing the noise I have been having in my drivetrain.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZabRgZ4fvrw

Sounds similar to me, except mine is much louder, likely because I have a remote microphone right up near the bell housing, and the other videos have the audio feed from within the passenger cabin.

I've reached out to the guy who made the thread on CorvetteForum to see what, if any, resolution was made concerning that noise. I also contacted a representative of Monster Clutches to see what they might think of the noise I am having.

It just might well be that the Centerforce clutch in my car has been the problem all along. I read that they are known for being noisy, at least as noted by some people. So that is the way I am leaning.

I am sending out feelers now to see who I can have work on the car. I would really like to get this resolved so I can drive the car without feeling like that noise is finally going to develop into something breaking, leaving drivetrain parts laying all in the road behind me.
 
I'm still trying to get my mind straight about what potentially could be causing this drivetrain noise I'm having, so I decided to set up a chart that would show me what parts are rotating and which ones are not under particular circumstances.

clutch_noise_rotating_parts_01.JPG


The idea being that likely the noise I am hearing is coming from a part that is rotating pressed against a part that is not rotating. Or in a transition stage from a rotating part pressed against a non-rotating part to make the non-rotating part rotate.

In my case, the noise is most prevalent, although intermittent, when the car begins to move from a dead stop with me lifting up on the clutch pedal which brings the clutch pressure plate in contact with the clutch disk and presses it against the flywheel. A complication here is that it seems that the drivetrain has to actually be under load for that noise to appear. Working the clutch while the transmission is out of gear never seems to make the noise appear, whether the car is moving or not. In the video I did earlier, just the load of applying force to the rear wheels seemed sufficient to make the noise evident. Sometimes.

So there appears to be several components that are mechanically tied together and act as one concerning their rotation.

They are:
  1. Pilot bearing, flywheel, and clutch pressure plate.
  2. Clutch disk, torque tube input shaft, torque tube driveshaft, torque tube output shaft, and transmission input shaft
  3. Throwout bearing
  4. Transmission output shaft, differential, rear wheels

#1 is tied to engine speed. If the engine is running, those parts are rotating.

#2 is tied together as a single unit, effectively. If one part is rotating, they are all rotating.

#3 is only rotating when the clutch pedal is down, pressing it against the fingers of the rotating clutch pressure plate.

#4 is only rotating if the car is actually in motion, as they are tied to the rear wheels. So if the car is moving, they are all moving.

So the three conditions to be considered with all these moving parts are:

  1. Is the car moving or stationary?
  2. Is the transmission in gear or not in gear?
  3. Is the clutch pedal up or down?


So when I am hearing the drivetrain noise, the car is stationary, the transmission is in gear, and I am in the process of lifting up on the clutch pedal to bring the clutch pressure plate against the clutch disk, which begins to impart rotational energy through the torque tube input shaft, through the driveshaft to the torque tube output shaft, into the transmission input shaft, through the transmission output shaft to the differential, and then to the rear wheels.

Until I begin to release pressure on the clutch pedal to engage the clutch pressure plate against the clutch disk, there is no noticeable noise anywhere that I have noticed. When the car is sitting still in idle with the clutch pressed down, transmission in gear or out of gear, there is no noise. When the clutch pedal is fully released in the up position with the transmission out of gear and the car not moving, there is no noise. When the car is moving with the clutch pedal up or down, transmission in gear or out, there is no noise.

The ONLY time there is drivetrain noise is when the clutch pedal is in transition from being fully down to fully up with the transmission in gear. And sometimes I can hear a faint squeal and feel a shudder in the shifter during gear shifts. Again, highly intermittent, and only in the process of the clutch pedal being lifted after the gear shift change.

Today I took the car out to test an idea I had. What I wanted to do was to run the car up to speed, and then leaving the transmission in gear, let off the gas pedal to bring the engine speed down to idle, then push in the clutch pedal to disengage the clutch pressure plate from the clutch disk. Therefore the car's speed would actually be high, but the engine speed would be at idle. That would have the drive train from the clutch disk back to the rear wheels spinning rapidly, yet the pilot bearing, flywheel, and clutch pressure plate would be only at idle speed. The idea was that if the pilot bearing were bad, then in this condition, with the torque tube input shaft spinning rapidly, if the pilot bearing were shot, I would hear a clatter or squealing as the nose of the input shaft rattled around in the bad pilot bearing. However, no such noise was evident when I tried that. I tried it a couple of times, just to be sure. So much for that idea.

Of course, the drivetrain noise didn't show up the entire time I was driving the car, so I'm not sure I really proved anything. But I would think with a positive solid failure of any of the above listed components, the noise would be constant, and easily reproduced on demand.

So what does this all mean? What it likely means is that when I have someone else look at this, that drivetrain noise will not be able to be reproduced, and whoever is looking at it for me will think I'm some kind of nut with an imagined problem.

:face_palm_02:
 
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