427 engine (part 2) - RHS block

[Rich Z]

Like clockwork, the package showed up from SummitRacing today, so I had the stuff I needed to get to work on the tensioners. I changed out both idler pulleys and both tensioners. Went pretty smoothly, but I can see where being a spider monkey with tentacles would make the job much easier. Of particular note was that the bolt holding the accessory belt pulley in place was just only a tad over finger tight. Certainly nowhere near the 37 ft. lbs. of torque those bolts call for.

The CompCams manual tensioner went on without a hitch, but I had to find shorter mounting bolts for it. The ones that were in there were about an inch and a half too long and just looked strange. Fortunately I found what looked like the stock bolts in a box of bolts that came home with me in the trunk when I brought the car home. Adjustment of the tensioner seems easy enough by just torquing it to 25 ft. lbs. and then locking down the locking bolt to 40 ft. lbs. Although honestly I couldn't get a torque wrench onto that locking bolt, as there isn't any clearance behind it for a socket. Guess I need to get some crows foot wrenches one of these days for situations like this. But I got it to "two grunt" tight, so that should hold it.

Connie was helping me do this stuff today, so I had her eyeball the belts while I cranked over the engine and started it up. Everything looked perfect. Except when I saw smoke from the passenger side that smelled like oil. THEN I remembered that I hadn't put in the oil dipstick tube yet. Duh... So I shut it down and waiting for the engine to cool down enough for us to put that back in. I painted the tube and the handle red and it looks pretty sharp, I think.

Now, if that new airbridge supposed to show up on Monday fixes the hood clearance problem, things will DEFINITELY be looking up for having this baby DONE.

 

[Rich Z]

Damn....

The Vararam VR Power duct I ordered at the end of last week came in around noontime today, so Connie and I headed over to the garage to replace that BBK airbridge with this newer one. Much smaller and lighter than the BBK unit, but maybe TOO much so. First thought that went through my mind when I handled it was "flimsy". But the guy at Vararam told me emphatically that it would hold up to 10 psi of boost, so I figured he likely knew what he was talking about. I asked about this duct on CorvetteForum earlier and a guy there said he didn't think it would hold up under boost since he had trouble with the duct collapsing just trying to tighten the clamps.

Well, I was hoping for the best.....

It was a little bit of a struggle to get it installed, and certainly couldn't have done it without Connie jumping in there helping me. This is definitely a job where you need more than two hands on it. Got everything tightened down nicely, and made sure it would clear the hood OK. Looked A-OK, with no clearance issues at all. MAF/IAT was relocated up near the throttle body and it looked good sitting there. The instructions said to run the engine with the hood closed so the duct would heat soak and then go back and retighten the clamp holding the duct to the MAF housing. So I did that, and while at it checked all the other clamps as well. Well, the clamp on the bottom of the duct felt loose, so I retightened it. Hmm, after about three or four turns, I noticed a buckling in the duct itself right at the clamp screw adjustment. Matter of fact, the adjustment screw was turning inwards into the duct itself. Aw hell.

Well, obviously that buckling of the duct was now a vacuum and most certainly a boost leak. So I pulled it out and snapped the following pictures...

So, back to square one, it appears. This thing just is not going to cut it.

I sent an email with those pics attached to Vararam to see what they say. I wish they made that duct out of a more robust material, as it would be about perfect for what I need concerning size and fitment. But I guess I was right about that "flimsy" feel, and quite honestly have my doubts that it would hold up under boost if it collapsed so easily just tightening down the clamp. It's not like I am hercules or anything, and was just using a screwdriver to tighten it, and not anything that could exert a lot of torque. So no, "flimsy" just about covers it....

Damn.....

 

[Rich Z]

Well, I talked to the folks at Granatelli, and they sent me a link to a video showing the airbridge they use on their twin turbo kits holding up under 23 psi of boost. So my 10 psi should be a piece of cake for it. Got one on order........

 

[shakedown067]

Yep, I hate not being able to order from Ecklers, but I just won't do it anymore. They are just a 3hr drive and it takes 4-5 days for them to ship anything to you. I can get something from ZIP out of Texas, or MadVet from up north in less time. Very sad. Good luck on the new airbridge...it certainly looks like it should work out nicely.

 

[Rich Z]

Yesterday when I put on that Vararam air bridge, I took some video because I wanted to take a look (and listen) at the cold start up and idle to get a feel for how much more work remained to be done there to smooth that out. I also wanted to switch the A/C on and off at idle to see how that affected idle. And I wanted to rev up the engine a few times to see how it recovered when the gas pedal was released. And I also wanted to make sure I had those new belt tensioner and pulleys all installed correctly and not have a serpentine belt thrown on me.

All in all, things went pretty well, and actually it doesn't appear to be any glaring holes in the tuning that need to be sweated over. Yeah, some minor fine tuning could be done, but all in all, it's not really any big deal that I can see.

Besides, according to the Vararam VR Power Duct instructions, I had to heat up the air bridge anyway to retighten the clamp at the MAF sensor to seal it properly. Too bad I decided to tighten them ALL and then found out that the clamp collapsed the unsupported end of the air bridge. Apparently the heat made it rather pliable, and actually TOO pliable. But good to find out now rather than later on when the air bridge was REAL hot and trying to hold onto 10 psi of boost. I just had visions of that thing ballooning on me from the pressure and going *pop*. So that's on it's way back to Vararam right now for a refund.

Oh well, hopefully the air bridge I have coming from Granatelli will do the trick for me.

Anyway, here's the video I mentioned above...



I think I need to move the camcorder further away from the tail pipes. The car is so loud that it's actually clipping frequencies and volume from the audio.

Oh, notice my sidekick, Connie, who was helping me with the air bridge install and then putting the old one back in. :thumbsup:

 

[Rich Z]

Well, I got the new air bridge in from Granatelli on Monday, and it does feel a bit more robust feeling than that Vararam one. But honestly, I just didn't feel like messing with it. Besides the storm yesterday, I just want to give my elbow some time to heal up before taking a chance of hurting it again. It feels like it is getting better, but there are twinges when I move it certain ways that apply pressure to my forearm. Things like pushing on a wrench will do it or trying to lean on the fender with my left arm while working a wrench with my right arm.

I'm just hoping it's not damaged to the point where I need medical intervention (surgery) to fix it right. The left elbow just FEELS differently from my right one. More pointier. So maybe something isn't aligned right in there or something. Probably a sharp rap with a hammer might straighten it up, but I'm far to adverse to pain to try it. :ack2:

So the air bridge is just going to have to wait. Not that I could drive the car anyway. Our road is a mess from all the rain we had.

 

[Mark Dalton]

Any word from Vararam Rich?

 

[Rich Z]

Any word from Vararam Rich?

No, not yet. I think I paid with PayPal and I don't see any refund yet. They did send me a prepaid UPS return label, but unfortunately that didn't happen until after I had already shipped it off to them.

 

[Rich Z]

Connie helped me put on the new Granatelli airbridge on Thursday. Took some fiddling to get it on, trying to figure out which couplers needed to be used to make it fit correctly. Luckily I had bought a few spares from STS a while back and I only had to cut one of them. It still touches the underside of the hood slightly, but I figured that since it is plastic, I can form it slightly when it gets hot. But at least it didn't bulge out the hood like the BBK one did.

So yesterday (Friday) I took the car out for a little test drive. Was only out for about an hour and was really just cruising to see how things held together. Outside temp was around 99 degrees, and the coolant temp was around 199 degrees. Oil temp was 233 degrees, and oil pressure at 33 psi. A/C seemed to work just fine. No smoke from the exhaust nor any strange burning smells.

The car seems to surge a bit here and there at low speeds, such as coming to a stop. Also surges a bit when going a very slow speeds as I did on my dirt road. But really not too bad, and I'm sure that can be fixed pretty quickly. I did notice something odd in that the vacuum/boost gauge seemed to be stuck at 10 on the vacuum side most of the time at the end of my test drive, where I know it should be around 20 at cruising speeds. Long story short is that when I got it back home and it cooled down enough for me to get my hands under the hood, I found that the stiff vacuum tube going into the intake manifold had come part way out of the rubber boot holding it into the intake, and had folded over the boot a slight bit, obviously putting a restriction in that line. So I fixed that, I think, and will just see how that goes next time I drive it.

There is also some drivetrain noise I hear now and again, mostly at shifting. Probably mostly from that dual disk clutch (which I have heard can be noisy), and those solid drive shaft mounts. Hopefully that is all it is, and not something installed incorrectly getting ready to let loose on me. I didn't take apart the drivetrain myself while the car has been here, so I just have to hope that the two shops at least did that correctly. Aaron put the new correct clutch in after it was determined that Harwood put in an underpowered one. So I HOPE he did that correctly.

But nothing burst into flames and nothing fell off of the car while driving it. I know this video is going to be pretty boring to people expecting to see me "getting on it", but no, I'm not pushing the car. I'm still apprehensive about it's reliability, and I'm really not willing to push things too hard too soon. So for a while when I drive it, it's just going to be to make sure I can get from point A to point B and back to point A again without having the darn thing break down on me.



Like I said, pretty boring, but at least the car didn't wind up on a flatbed to be brought back home.

I put the car on the rack to see how everything looked, and so far, so good. Seemed to be a very slight coolant leak at the petcock on the radiator, but it was just a few drops on the floor, and nothing I could see right at the radiator. No oil leaks, no fuel leaks, nothing broken or abraded looking. Nothing shaken loose.

Oh yeah, the Granatelli airbridge did seem pretty pliable when it got hot, so I put some padding on it and then closed the hood down on it to try to form it so it wouldn't touch the hood at all. Seems like it worked, so we'll see....

To be continued.....

ps. Sorry about the video. I shakes a WHOLE lot more than I like, and also makes a rattling noise here and there. I've got to figure out something better...

 

[Rich Z]

Took the car out for a little spin again today, but only to the post office and back. But I'm still hearing what sounds like noise from the clutch. This is a Fidanza 7.6 Ceramic twin disc clutch. I've never driven a twin disc clutch before, so I don't know if I just don't have the hang of driving with this kind of clutch and this is normal because of my lack of finesse or if there is an issue. I have heard that the Fidanza twin discs can be noisy, but is it THIS kind of noise?

So I snipped out parts of the videos I took the last two times I had the car out for test drives, and compiled a bunch of snippets where the noise takes place. Most are from a dead stop, but there have been some between shifts while moving as well. The engine noise makes it rather difficult to hear the noise clearly, but it is a lot more noticeable in person. Often sounds like a bunch of large rocks banging around somewhere. I may have to try playing around with the audio settings in my camcorder to see if I can do a better job of capturing it. Anyway, what I did was to show a red exclamation mark when the noise takes place. There is some vibration noise from the camcorder itself now and again, so I wanted to try to pinpoint the exact noise that concerns me.

Anyone got any ideas? Do I just need to spend more time practicing with this new clutch? There is also an aluminum flywheel involved, and the car does seem to hunt for the preferred rpm during takeoff, so these might be influencing factors here. But I do recall that when Mike Carnahan was driving the car, I never heard that noise at all, so that is what has me thinking that I'm just not used to the darn thing and the clutch is telling me so.

 

[shakedown067]

I don't have any personal experience with an aluminum fly wheel and double clutch, but I've heard of many a person that ended up getting rid of them because of the noise...and on a C4 forget about it. Imagine the noise you heard being constant, all the time. I'm pretty sure it's normal, but you'll certainly need someone else to chime in, as I'm just passing on hearsay.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, this just keeps on getting better and better...........

I took the car out today to find a lonely stretch of road to just practice using the clutch from a dead stop to try to get a feel for how it wants to be treated. So I found a nice spot and spent a good bit of time at it. Still feels odd to me in that I can feel the clutch start to engage with my foot on the clutch pedal just barely coming up off of the floor put giving it some gas doesn't seem to make it catch any more firmly and actually move the car any faster. Then I have to let the clutch pedal out almost all of the way out before it really catches firmly. The clutch pedal is pretty much right at the top of it's travel with NO play left in it.

But I was getting better at it with finding what seemed to be the sweet spot between having the clutch chatter like hell, and having it bog the engine because the RPMs are too low. I was thinking I was really getting the hang of it, and maybe there was some breakin of the new clutch needed. So after a couple of dozen of those test clutch engagements, I was doing the clutch thing again and the wide open road beckoned me on to try out some of the other gears. So what the hell.... The car certainly does feel strong, and you can definitely feel when the turbos spool up. It still broke the rear tires loose when I was in third gear up near the top of the gear. So I just cooled it after third gear and put the gear shift into neutral to just coast to let my speed drop down. And, well, I guess you need to hear this rather than trying to describe it.....



Scared the living hell out of me, let me tell you. I was thinking I was going to be needing a tow truck, for sure. And believe me, it was MUCH louder in person than it shows up in that video. Sounded like it was coming from right at my feet, which is right where the clutch is located. There is just no way that this sound is normal in any way.

Well, I got it back home without any further incidents, but man I was sweating it. I guess I'm done driving it until I figure out what to do about the clutch. I don't want to chance it breaking down completely or even cause some damage to anything else. Not really sure what to do at this point, as I know I can't tackle removing that drivetrain with my elbow like it is. I just don't have any strength in my right arm because of it. It's better than it was, but a LONG way from being 100 percent. Working the gear shift was even a chore for me trying to get to fifth gear and reverse. And besides, do I really want to take the chance of hurting my elbow further to where I could never drive a stick shift again?

So basically I'm screwed concerning that car until I can figure out what to do now. Obviously I can't take it back to the person who put the darn thing in there, so this is going to be yet another out of pocket expense. Maybe I could be lucky and the last man in just put the clutch in incorrectly and it can be easily fixed without having to buy a new clutch. But still, that entire drivetrain needs to come out, and that's a pain in the ass from what I can see. Which means it will be costly just for the labor of even checking out the clutch if I feel it is prudent to pay someone else to do it rather than run the risk of hurting my arm further.

Dammit, this is getting REALLY old....

 

[Benjamin]

with the shifter in neutral, and when it is making the noise, let off the clutch pedal and see if the noise goes away. I have always heard a dual disc clutch is noisy, and have heard a couple in diesel's but they weren't that loud over the motors. sounds like the discs are chattering when you have the clutch pedal pressed down. when you press the clutch pedal down you have the flywheel at one RPM, the clutch disc at another RPM. when have the shifter in neutral and then put it in second the drive shaft and clutch disc are either slowed down or sped up based on your wheel speed and therefore change the RPM of the clutch disc that are chattering.

that is just my take on it..... have you looked into a transmission blanket or a scatter shield that would cover the clutch area? In a high HP setup like that i'd hate to have one of those disc to come through the tunnel.... i mean with all you have invested in the car, what's another $200? I know my feet are worth more than that to me....

http://emracingcorp.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=557

 

[Kap142]

Sounded like 20 lbs of rock in a cement mixer. Brother you deserve a break.

 

[Rich Z]

with the shifter in neutral, and when it is making the noise, let off the clutch pedal and see if the noise goes away. I have always heard a dual disc clutch is noisy, and have heard a couple in diesel's but they weren't that loud over the motors. sounds like the discs are chattering when you have the clutch pedal pressed down. when you press the clutch pedal down you have the flywheel at one RPM, the clutch disc at another RPM. when have the shifter in neutral and then put it in second the drive shaft and clutch disc are either slowed down or sped up based on your wheel speed and therefore change the RPM of the clutch disc that are chattering.

that is just my take on it..... have you looked into a transmission blanket or a scatter shield that would cover the clutch area? In a high HP setup like that i'd hate to have one of those disc to come through the tunnel.... i mean with all you have invested in the car, what's another $200? I know my feet are worth more than that to me....

http://emracingcorp.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=557

Thanks, for the input, Benjamin. Let me think about the sequence of events that took place......

Well, when I first heard the noise my car made, and bear in mind that I was in shock at the time expecting to see parts laying on the road in my rear view mirror, I had just let off the gas pedal in third gear and instead of doing the engine breaking thing, pushed in the clutch, put the gear shift in neutral, and then let off of the clutch pedal again. As best I can recall, THAT was when the noise started. When I RELEASED the clutch pedal. Pushing the clutch back in didn't stop it, and quite honestly I can't now remember when it did stop. I THINK it was when I put it in gear as I was slowing to a stop, but I'm not at all positive. I was pretty freaked out at that point. And I was surprised that I didn't have to change my shorts when I got back home.

During the second incident of the noise, I was in first gear accelerating when the noise started. I pushed in the clutch, and the noise continued. It didn't stop till I put the gear shift into second gear.

At this point, I would really like to know what the heck is going on before have to think about what to do now. I don't want to pull out that drive train and then find out that "Oh, that's NORMAL for this kind of (Fidanza) clutch." :ack2:

Quite honestly, if that is NORMAL for anything in the car, that will be a show stopper for me.

Yeah, I hear you about the scatter shield thing, but honestly, with the possibility of me having to fork out even more money for a new clutch, my mind just recoils at the thought of buying anything else right now.

 

[Rich427]

I certainly am not a trained mechanic, but I have pulled my share of motors and transmissions in my day. And I have always felt that if something didn't feel right or sound right, it probably wasn't right. But fortunately for me, I have never done it on a C5 and I don't have any experience on a dual disc clutch. That said, the noise really sounds like something has not been tightened/torqued appropriately. On a C5, can you drop the torque tube/drive shaft, then the bell housing, to get access to the clutch/flywheel assembly to get a good look at this area without going through the headache of pulling everything? If so, I certainly would take a look at that option. If I found that everything looked good and was fastened correctly, then at least I would feel better that nothing is going to come apart on you while you are driving.

Also, why not contact Fidanza about the situation and see if you can get their opinion. Since they are the manufacturer, they should know whether this noise is excessive. It sure sounds like it to me. They might even be willing to view the last video you posted to help diagnose the problem. If you check their website, they do have a contact number. It might be worth a phone call.

I hope you get this figured out.

Rich

 

[Benjamin]

I certainly am not a trained mechanic, but I have pulled my share of motors and transmissions in my day. And I have always felt that if something didn't feel right or sound right, it probably wasn't right. But fortunately for me, I have never done it on a C5 and I don't have any experience on a dual disc clutch. That said, the noise really sounds like something has not been tightened/torqued appropriately. On a C5, can you drop the torque tube/drive shaft, then the bell housing, to get access to the clutch/flywheel assembly to get a good look at this area without going through the headache of pulling everything? If so, I certainly would take a look at that option. If I found that everything looked good and was fastened correctly, then at least I would feel better that nothing is going to come apart on you while you are driving.

Also, why not contact Fidanza about the situation and see if you can get their opinion. Since they are the manufacturer, they should know whether this noise is excessive. It sure sounds like it to me. They might even be willing to view the last video you posted to help diagnose the problem. If you check their website, they do have a contact number. It might be worth a phone call.

I hope you get this figured out.

Rich

that's some good advice. let Fidanza take a "hear" at it and see what their input is. if anyone will say that is normal or isn't normal it will be them.

 

[Rich Z]

I certainly am not a trained mechanic, but I have pulled my share of motors and transmissions in my day. And I have always felt that if something didn't feel right or sound right, it probably wasn't right. But fortunately for me, I have never done it on a C5 and I don't have any experience on a dual disc clutch. That said, the noise really sounds like something has not been tightened/torqued appropriately. On a C5, can you drop the torque tube/drive shaft, then the bell housing, to get access to the clutch/flywheel assembly to get a good look at this area without going through the headache of pulling everything? If so, I certainly would take a look at that option. If I found that everything looked good and was fastened correctly, then at least I would feel better that nothing is going to come apart on you while you are driving.

Also, why not contact Fidanza about the situation and see if you can get their opinion. Since they are the manufacturer, they should know whether this noise is excessive. It sure sounds like it to me. They might even be willing to view the last video you posted to help diagnose the problem. If you check their website, they do have a contact number. It might be worth a phone call.

I hope you get this figured out.

Rich

Yeah, I did contact Fidanza via email and provided links to the two "noise" videos I made. Haven't heard back from them yet, though. Also sent the links to RPM for their input. Jeremy at RPM says the noise "DEFINITELY isn't normal. ...that is extremely excessive."

I called Shane, the vette tech at Champion Chevy and talked with him for a while, and he came up with a bunch of possible causes. He suggested that I just drive the car and try to pinpoint exactly what circumstances make the noise show up.

One of the guys on the CorvetteForum who lives down in Tampa offered to drive up here to help me pull out the drivetrain. The problem is that the drivetrain weighs between 600 and 700 pounds, so I would need to buy a transmission jack in order to do this. Honestly, I'm not sure my arm will be up to the task, as the elbow is still not healed up enough for me to be confident the arm can hold up any weight. Heck, the transmission jack that was recommended to me weighs around 250 pounds, and I don't think Connie and I could manhandle that to get it off the delivery truck. And heck, I've already had to buy a lot of tools that I will hopefully never use again, so do I want to spend money on a jack that will be used this one time and that is it? And yeah, that would just make my day to have that drive train slip off of the jack because I didn't have the balance right.

So right now I kind of feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place. I know the drive train is going to have to come out. I just don't see the answers to "how", "where", and "when" being forthcoming quite yet. On one hand I guess I would like to do this here, but on the other hand, heck, maybe it would be best to let Shane take a look at it since he is the expert. There could be a problem what would be glaringly obvious to him, but mean nothing at all to me. But hell, I think they charge 10 to 11 hours for labor installing a clutch, so that route will be expensive.

Yeah, like I said, I don't know what is best to do.

Oh as for pulling things apart just to take a look, heck, the only way to really take a look is by taking it all out. Once you have the differential, transmission and torque tube disconnected enough to pull it away from the clutch, most of the work has been done. The exhaust has to be removed before you can even get to the torque tube. There is that tunnel plate that has to be removed, and the cradle underneath the differential has to be at least disconnected from the frame of the car. Oh yeah, the shifter has to be removed as well. I guess there are different ways of approaching this, and likely some ways easier than others, but this job is certainly not going to be any picnic.

As for bolts being loose or not torqued adequately, heck, that certainly wouldn't surprise me. It's not like I haven't already found missing and loose bolts elsewhere on this car after bringing it back home from Aaron's.

Sigh.... I REALLY thought this car was done........... :banghead:

 

[navy2kcoupe]

Rich, does the bell housing have an "inspection plate" on it? If it does, that's where
I think I would start. At least you could check to see if anything was loose enuf for the
old eyeballs to spot.
Andy :wavey:

 

[Rich Z]

Rich, does the bell housing have an "inspection plate" on it? If it does, that's where
I think I would start. At least you could check to see if anything was loose enuf for the
old eyeballs to spot.
Andy :wavey:

Yes, it is a two piece bell housing, but in order to get off that bottom inspection section, the headers (meaning the entire exhaust system) would have to come off.

I guess a lot depends on whether I ask the guy from Tampa to come up here to help me, or if I just take it to the Chevrolet dealer and let Shane take a look. I can see pros and cons to doing it either way.