427 engine (part 2) - RHS block

[Rich Z]

Not too much going on lately. Haven't driven the car much.

I was quite surprised when Shane (from the Chevy dealership) called me yesterday just to check up on how my car was doing. I thought it was right nice of him to follow up.

Anyway, I told him about the noise I am hearing when I first start off out of my driveway. I believe I posted a video earlier of what I am talking about. Been meaning to see if I can duplicate the sound while the car is on the lift, but for one reason or another, just haven't gotten around to doing that.

One reason for that is because I found that the insulating convoluted tubing I put around the fuel line coming from the driver's side fuel rail to the fuel pressure regulator had burned through. The fuel line itself looks OK, but obviously that line is too close to the #7 primary header pipe. So I am planning on putting some insulating wrap around the header primary pipes (all of them) to try to reduce the heat they are pumping into the engine compartment. I may completely reroute that fuel line a little bit anyway

While I am at it, I'm planning on wrapping the entire exhaust system. Seems I have found melted plastic hear and there on the exhaust pipes since bringing the car home a year ago, so maybe it is best I just try to wrap up those hot pipes to try to keep the heat contained within them.

There is also the issue with the evap system not having a line run back to the intake vacuum that I need to see what I can do about. And there are those brackets on the STS pipes that someone bent all to hell that I need to straighten out. Maybe just plugging off the line or maybe putting a check valve in there will work well enough. At this point I just don't know enough about how that system actually works to have a firm idea on what to do about it to end that gasoline smell the car gives off.

Let's see, the upper radiator support is cracked. I fixed it once, but obviously I didn't fix it permanently.

So yeah, still some minor odds and ends left to do. At least what I know about today. I'm hoping that noise I hear is just something minor as well. First step is to identify where it is actually coming from.

Ah well, all in due time.... If I can at least recreate the noise on demand, then perhaps Shane will be able to figure it out without having to do any exploratory surgery.

 

[Rich Z]

Been out of town all last week, so didn't do anything on the car, of course. But I've been thinking about it....

I've decided to replace that fuel line running from the back of the driver's side fuel rail to the fuel pressure regulator. Since the insulation I had wrapped around it got burned through TWICE now, I'm afraid that the hose itself might be compromised. Sure would make for an exciting drive if that hose were to split under 50 psi of pressure and squirt gasoline all over that hot header pipe.

So best to be safe rather than sorry.

So I've got that stuff on order from Summit, that I hope will be in by the end of the week. Some of the fittings I needed (figures that the AN fittings for the PTFE fuel lines are different from the other non-PTFE fuel line AN fittings. ) are on backorder, so that might put a delay in things.

Thing is that I believe I need to use PTFE (teflon lined) fuel line instead of the stuff I used. And I'm sure that original line from the fuel filter to the back of the passenger side fuel rail that Chris Harwood put in there is most certainly not teflon lined, neither. Apparently rubber doesn't last too long when this ethanol laced gasoline we have to deal with now is running through it.

But for now I'm just going to change out the driver's side fuel line, and the cross over line at the front of the fuel rails. That back one will have to wait, because I will need to take down the exhaust and the tunnel plate in order to get that old fuel line out of there. With there still being a noise coming from somewhere, likely the drivetrain, I just know if I do this now, whatever is making that noise will turn out meaning the drivetrain needs to be pulled out again, and I can do that fuel line at that time. No sense wasting my time now with it and only have to pull the stuff out again anyway. Hopefully that won't be the case, but I'm pretty familiar with Murphy's Law by now.

But I do want to wrap insulation around those primary header pipes to keep all that heat from impacting everything around them in the engine bay. That Taylor fuel line insulating covering I used was supposed to be able to withstand 1,000 degrees, so yeah, it's darn hot near those tubes.

So hopefully I can get that done over the next several days so I will feel somewhat comfortable about driving the car again to try to figure out that noise I've mentioned. Shane has offered to help me out with it, so hopefully it will turn out to be something trivial. Yeah, fat chance that I will be so lucky........

 

[85vette]

I would advise you to wrap the side where the starter is mounted also, I went through a starter a year when I had my 71 Z/28!

 

[Rich Z]

Yeah, I'm going to be wrapping all of the header primary tubes. Probably will wind up wrapping up EVERYTHING in the exhaust system before I'm done. Including covers for the turbos.

Getting that starter out would be a real chore to do with the headers, so I certainly don't want to do that very frequently. Shane told me the header bolt holes in the heads got pretty buggered up before he got the car, so I don't want to have to remove those headers any more than is absolutely necessary. Otherwise I'm going to have to wind up pulling the heads to get those header bolt holes fixed.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, I just couldn't work up enough enthusiasm today to start tackling those header primary tube insulating sleeves. So I decided to do something easier and not waste the whole darn day getting nothing done on the car.

The easiest thing I could think of to do today was to put some turbo jackets on my two turbos instead. I had to just guess at what size jackets I needed when I ordered them, since I really don't have much of a handle yet about this turbo terminology and specifications. But apparently the T3 jackets I got were perfect and just what I needed.

They probably won't do much for the turbos themselves until the rest of the exhaust is covered, but at least the heat from them won't be percolating up into the trunk area as much.

These turbo covers came from PTP Turbo Blankets.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, I guess I know why teflon fuel lines weren't put in my car by Chris Harwood. Besides the fact that they cost more than the rubber hose lined ones. They are a bit more difficult to install ends on.

But quite frankly I think the benefits are well worth the additional expense and increased trouble creating them.







I plan on replacing that long run of hose from the fuel filter to the passenger side fuel rail as soon as I can. But for now, I'm only doing the two hoses up front in the engine bay. As soon as the backordered fittings come in, that is.

 

[Rich Z]

Started working on putting those insulating sleeves on the header primary pipes. Starting with the driver's side first, on number 7 cylinder, since that one looks like it will be the biggest pain in the butt to work on. Pulled off all the ignition stuff on that side to make it easier to work there. I've ALMOST got that primary pipe done, after fussing with it for hours, trying to figure out the best way to do this. Apparently there is NO best way. It's just a pain in the butt. Hopefully the rest of the tubes will be easier to do.

I've got the fuel line disconnected running from the rear of the driver's side fuel rail to the fuel pressure regulator at the regulator end, and will remove the hose completely tomorrow. It's going to be replaced anyway, and it will make things even easier to get at that number 7 cylinder exhaust tube.

The darn stuff that sleeving is made out of makes my hands itch like crazy. Tried to use latex gloves, but most of this kind of stuff needs to be done by braille, so I had to remove them so I could feel what the heck I was doing.

It's a pain in the neck. Literally!

 

[Benjamin]

The darn stuff that sleeving is made out of makes my hands itch like crazy. Tried to use latex gloves, but most of this kind of stuff needs to be done by braille, so I had to remove them so I could feel what the heck I was doing.

It's a pain in the neck. Literally!

if it is the wrap like what I am thinking, it is fiberglass. Are you soaking the wrap in water? I know the directions that came with mine said to soak in water, this allowed it to stretch a bit and when it dries it conforms tightly to the curves and whatnot.

if you are using it dry, that is why you itch, soaking it in water will make the fibers less sticky....

I am thinking of this stuff.

 

[Rich Z]

No, I'm using something different.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010115

The install instructions didn't say anything about wetting the stuff down during application. I'm not sure if it would make this better or worse. The install instructions actually indicate using an odd sort of clamp to hold together the sides where they overlap, but they look like they would be a ROYAL pain in the ass to try to work with. I bought a bunch of 8 inch stainless steel wire ties and am going to use them instead. I found a REAL good deal on a 100 lot of them.

I've got several rolls of the 2 inch wide header wrap stuff like you show in your pic, but that would be pretty darn tough to use while the headers are on the engine, I would think. But then again, maybe it wouldn't be a worse pain in the neck, only a DIFFERENT pain in the neck. Just seems to me trying to roll that two inch wide wrap round and round the primary tubes would be rather difficult, and quite likely enough to push me over the edge of sanity. With this stuff I am using, it is 8 inches wide, so I just cut it to length and then wrap it longwise. Sounds easier than it actually is to do, however, since it's pretty darn tight in there. I've had to move the car up and down on the lift many times as I tried to get at it from both the top and the underside. I can say that I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to pay someone by the hour to do this. :ack2:

I think the way this is going to have to work is that I will run a single wrap down each primary tube and then likely have to wrap whatever is left of this stuff around ALL four pipes when they are close to the collector. The pipes are just too close together to get those sleeves down all of them all of the way. It was tough enough just getting this wrap around that one #7 primary tube, and there is just no way another layer will go all the way down around the tube next to it. Some of those primary tubes are just about touching together in some places.

But heck, I've got as long as I need to do it, so if it takes me all day to do each primary tube, then so be it. I just hope it doesn't look like crap when I get finished. I'm going to try to do my best not to have it look too bad, but you know how that goes sometimes. Tedium can overwhelm you sometimes.

I wish someone made a very high temp convoluted tubing sort of wrap that was split lengthwise that I could just slide down each primary tube from the top as far as they would go. That would probably be the easiest way to do this, I guess. I looked online but couldn't find anything that looked like what I wanted. :shrug01: Surely I can't be the first person in the world to want something like this?

 

[Benjamin]

No, I'm using something different.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dei-010115

The install instructions didn't say anything about wetting the stuff down during application. I'm not sure if it would make this better or worse. The install instructions actually indicate using an odd sort of clamp to hold together the sides where they overlap, but they look like they would be a ROYAL pain in the ass to try to work with. I bought a bunch of 8 inch stainless steel wire ties and am going to use them instead. I found a REAL good deal on a 100 lot of them.

I've got several rolls of the 2 inch wide header wrap stuff like you show in your pic, but that would be pretty darn tough to use while the headers are on the engine, I would think. But then again, maybe it wouldn't be a worse pain in the neck, only a DIFFERENT pain in the neck. Just seems to me trying to roll that two inch wide wrap round and round the primary tubes would be rather difficult, and quite likely enough to push me over the edge of sanity. With this stuff I am using, it is 8 inches wide, so I just cut it to length and then wrap it longwise. Sounds easier than it actually is to do, however, since it's pretty darn tight in there. I've had to move the car up and down on the lift many times as I tried to get at it from both the top and the underside. I can say that I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to pay someone by the hour to do this. :ack2:

I think the way this is going to have to work is that I will run a single wrap down each primary tube and then likely have to wrap whatever is left of this stuff around ALL four pipes when they are close to the collector. The pipes are just too close together to get those sleeves down all of them all of the way. It was tough enough just getting this wrap around that one #7 primary tube, and there is just no way another layer will go all the way down around the tube next to it. Some of those primary tubes are just about touching together in some places.

But heck, I've got as long as I need to do it, so if it takes me all day to do each primary tube, then so be it. I just hope it doesn't look like crap when I get finished. I'm going to try to do my best not to have it look too bad, but you know how that goes sometimes. Tedium can overwhelm you sometimes.

I wish someone made a very high temp convoluted tubing sort of wrap that was split lengthwise that I could just slide down each primary tube from the top as far as they would go. That would probably be the easiest way to do this, I guess. I looked online but couldn't find anything that looked like what I wanted. :shrug01: Surely I can't be the first person in the world to want something like this?

interesting stuff there, I found the SS wire ties to be useless when doing my motorcycle and Diesel manifold and down pipe. I just used a SS worm clamp like most people use on a radiator hose. I painted mine with the ceramic high temp paint specifically for that stuff and the hose clamps blended right on in.... I bet that wetting it would make it easier to handle and wouldn't hurt a thing. it will dry out when you idle the car, it'll steam for a few minutes and then you're done.

this is the instructions for the stuff I used
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/exh. wrap sum-350110,111,112 & 113.pdf

number 2 says "A popular method of wrapping is to soak the roll of wrap prior to installation so that it is made more pliable to allow for a tighter wrap."

 

[Rich Z]

interesting stuff there, I found the SS wire ties to be useless when doing my motorcycle and Diesel manifold and down pipe. I just used a SS worm clamp like most people use on a radiator hose. I painted mine with the ceramic high temp paint specifically for that stuff and the hose clamps blended right on in.... I bet that wetting it would make it easier to handle and wouldn't hurt a thing. it will dry out when you idle the car, it'll steam for a few minutes and then you're done.

this is the instructions for the stuff I used
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/exh. wrap sum-350110,111,112 & 113.pdf

number 2 says "A popular method of wrapping is to soak the roll of wrap prior to installation so that it is made more pliable to allow for a tighter wrap."

In what way were the SS wire ties useless to you? They wouldn't hold? Or something else?

I'm not sure wetting this stuff will help or hinder. I've been having to pull and slide the sleeve where I wanted it on the one primary tube I'm working on, so this is a different technique than I guess you use with the 2 inch wrap. Part of the problem is reaching a place where I need to use two hands to fold and hold the sleeve in place, but there is only room for ONE hand there. Heck, trying to get the SS wire ties on is a real fun thing to do as well. Maybe the SS hose clamps would work better in some instances, but then again, I'd have to be getting a screwdriver in there to tighten those down, which would also be pretty tricky to do.

Heck, this isn't the first time I have wished I had tentacles for fingers and arms when trying to do something on this car. Telekinesis would be GREAT!

 

[Rich Z]

Pulled off that fuel line running from the back of the driver's side fuel rail to the fuel pressure regulator today. Yeah, it got pretty hot.

That insulation is supposed to be good up to 1,000 degrees, but my guess that this doesn't apply to direct contact with a hot surface, only radiated heat.

The stainless steel braids look like they got pretty hot too, so no telling what shape the rubber hose underneath is in. Probably a good thing I decided to replace it with the teflon hose anyway.

Even with there being a lot more room after pulling all the ignition stuff out of the way, it's still a bear getting these primary tubes covered. But at least it IS possible to do (a couple of times I had my doubts), just tedious as hell and real slow going.

But I got that #7 cylinder tube covered, so that should have been the worst one to work on.

I put the sleeve on the #5 cylinder tube after dinner, and that one went a heck of a lot faster. It helps to measure the length needed for the tube and cut it to size rather than trying to work with just pulling the sleeve material off of the roll during the mounting process.

I can see I'm going to have to do some thinking about some of the tubes, as they are just too close together to cover them all like I want to do. The instructions say to use something to bend the primary tubes out of the way to give more clearance, but I'm not real inclined to do that. Sure would hate to break a weld on one of the headers doing that. I'll just have to figure out something.

Actually the hardest part of this has been to get those SS wire ties wrapped around the pipes when the sleeve is fitted into place. Where the tubes are close to the collector, it's REAL tight, and pretty tough to get the wire tie to go around that single tube like you want it to. Especially when the wire tie wants to grab onto the sleeve as you try to feed it around the tube. Fortunately the SS ties bend easily and can be partially formed. I found it's actually easier to use 11 inch long ties in those tight areas instead of the 8 inch ties since it's easier to grab onto the loose end as you feed it around the tube. Unlike the plastic ties, I have not been able to connect the SS ones with only one hand, unfortunately. They seem to be quite a bit more picky about the feed alignment.

But I will tell you this. When you cut the excess ends of those SS wire ties, razor blades don't have ANYTHING over them. Got a slight slash across my palm by one of them, and I was even going real slow trying to be careful.

So my hands are itching again. Tried the rubber gloves again, but they are useless for this. Can't feel what I am doing, and the fingers get caught between all sorts of stuff causing more headaches than it is worth. Plus they get shredded in no time anyway. Hope I'm not killing myself breathing any dust those sleeves make while working with them..... :ack2: But if it's something that will kill me in 30 years, no sweat......

 

[Benjamin]

In what way were the SS wire ties useless to you? They wouldn't hold? Or something else?

I never could get them to hold tight enough to be able to hold the wrap in place. one came loose while riding and i noticed just as the wrap was about 1/2 off the exhaust pipe and was dragging the ground, just short of the rear tire.... that would have been fun to of ran over while attached to the bike.

after going through that I have always just used the hose clamps.

 

[Rich Z]

I never could get them to hold tight enough to be able to hold the wrap in place. one came loose while riding and i noticed just as the wrap was about 1/2 off the exhaust pipe and was dragging the ground, just short of the rear tire.... that would have been fun to of ran over while attached to the bike.

after going through that I have always just used the hose clamps.

Ouch. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on them, then. But I am being pretty liberal with the number I use for each primary tube. But I think perhaps wind would play more of a factor on a bike than up under the hood of a car. I'm going to be wrapping the bottom tubes near the collector with another layer of insulation to try to keep that all bundled up nicely, too.

 

[Benjamin]

Ouch. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on them, then. But I am being pretty liberal with the number I use for each primary tube. But I think perhaps wind would play more of a factor on a bike than up under the hood of a car. I'm going to be wrapping the bottom tubes near the collector with another layer of insulation to try to keep that all bundled up nicely, too.

I guess some must different than mine but I ordered the "Summit Racing" brand and they sucked so I bought a set of the DEI ones and they were the exact same so I gave up.... I actually think that the 2" wrap would work, would take more time but would hug the header better. the object is to wrap them as tight as possible to eliminate the air between the wrap and the header. this insulates better and keeps the heat inside the header. Once I get my truck back going I am going to look into those turbo blankets like you got, they look nice....

 

[Rich Z]

If I had the headers off of the engine, I probably would have gone with the 2 inch wrap too, but on the engine, I think trying to wrap the headers now I would be pulling my hair out. Something I really can't afford to do, since I can't really spare any hair up there.

I guess I should have put the temp gun on the primaries before I did this to see what the actual difference will be. I am wrapping them as tightly as I can, but that's not saying much. It would take three hands to do where there is barely room for one hand. But I guess this will be better than nothing.

After doing the insulation on the garage doors I feel like I've become an insulation fanatic or something..... :crazy03: Maybe finding all kinds of heat damage evidence from the exhaust system from stuff left too close to it I've gotten kind of paranoid about it. I'm sure I'm going to get carried away with this and do stuff completely unnecessary........ But heck, if I'm going to make this car my hobby, why not? I'm sure I'll be learning about things that I really shouldn't had aughta done.

 

[85vette]

I think at the very least your engine would run better. I don't think Chevrolet would route the fuel line that close to that much heat, but then again, headers put out more heat than manifolds. I remember guys running "cool cans" to cool the fuel down on there drag cars. I would reroute them if possible.

 

[Rich Z]

Aw rat's ass........... :ahh:

I noticed some liquid on the floor at the back of the car, and it turns out to be oil leaking from that passenger side turbo again. Dammit... And it's coming from one of the bolts that I did NOT have to fix a little while back. The bolt is tight, so it's not like it worked loose. And I guess I didn't use enough thread sealant there.

It's the lowest sitting bolt on the turbo housing, so I'm guessing oil has leaked into it from the turbine shaft and once it reached the level of the bolt hole, just leaked on out. Which likely means that the bolt hole is leaking air under boost as well.

When I pulled the compressor housing off, quite a bit of oil came pouring out of it.

And I also noticed that oil is still leaking from that turbine shaft while it just sits there....

Well damn..... I can likely fix that leaking housing bolt hole, but I think the even bigger problem is why is there so much oil leaking there? The guy at Turbos Direct told me that it is not unusual for turbos to leak a little bit of oil because during normal driving, there is vacuum in the compressor housing, which will tend to want to suck oil from the shaft housing. But is this just a "little bit"? And it is leaking with zero vacuum, so will it just keep leaking till the turbo fille up with oil and starts spitting it up into the intercooler?

I just sent an email with attached pics to Turbo Direct to see what they say about this. The car is down anyway while I work on those header pipe wraps, and waiting from some backordered fittings for the PTFE fuel line, so if I need to send the turbo to them, now would be a good time to do it.

But still......... dammit all to hell.......

I guess one way to look at it is that it is a good thing that bolt hole leaked alerting me to the oil leak problem. Maybe I need to take a look at that driver's side turbo too to see if it has any oil inside of it.

 

[Rich Z]

Well, finished up the wrap on the header primary tubes on the driver's side today. Tentatively, anyway, depending on how it holds up when I drive the car and see if anything starts to unravel. But hopefully it will help a lot keeping heat away from everything else down there.

Maybe I'll start on the passenger side tomorrow.

 

[Rich Z]

I've been thinking about that oil leak problem in the turbo, and I think I know what happened. When I was getting ready to pull off the fuel line going to the fuel pressure regulator, I pulled the fuse for the fuel pump and then cranked the engine over to try to evacuate as much gasoline from the fuel lines as I could. Well, guess what else is controlled by that fuel pump fuse? Yeah, the oil scavenge pump for the turbos. So when I was turning over the engine, the oil pump was sending oil to the turbos, but the scavenge pump wasn't pulling the oil OUT of the turbos.

Yeah, the bolt at the bottom shouldn't have been leaking oil through the bolt hole, but I was a lot more concerned about the fact of oil being there at all. But the more I think about it, the more I believe this is what happened.

There probably is a little bit of oil in the driver's side turbo as well, so I will have to try to drain or suck that oil out of the housing. The scavenge pump only works on the oil in the shaft housing, and not in the compressor housing once oil gets in there.

And, of course, this probably was why oil started leaking earlier when I found those stripped out bolt holes in the compressor housing. :banghead: But I suppose those stripped bolt holes needed to be fixed anyway.

Live and learn, I guess. But I've got to think of some way to keep this from happening again if I need to pull off another fuel line for any reason.