Best way to gain around 100hp and it's cost, or just go Zo6?

[ynkedad]

Let me begin by saying, I didn't realize that i'd ever want more than 400hp.
Now, after having had a taste of 400hp, :crazy03: I just want to go FASTER.

Today I was talking to my wife about mods and More hp for my 2005 automatic (4 speed), C6 w/the Z51 pkg. My wife then blew me away when she eluded to getting a Zo6 . Hmmmmmmmmmm.

The problems I have with that are,
1) I've only had this Vette for a few short months, so I'd get raped on selling or trading mine in.
2) Why not just do hp mods to the one I have, rather than spend that kind of $ on a zo6.

So I visited the corveteforum and read a thread that contained this post from a guy in California:

I DO A COMPLETE 100HP KIT(HEADS, CAM , EXHAUST TUNE)
AND ALL PARTS AND FLUIDS AND ALL LABORS AND B/S INCLUDED
FOR 5K
BUT THATS JUST ME.....
AND THEN YOU STILL KEEP YOUR GM WARRANTY..
BUT WHO WANTS THAT ANYWAY? RIGHT...

UDRIVESLOW
------------------------
Anyone know of anywhere in Fl where 100 + hp can be achieved for around this (5k), or a better price?
Is it worth doing the mods or would I be better off (cost wise) with a Zo6?

Just looking for you all to play devil advocates, or to give your opinions on better Ideas for hp gains.
Thanks,

~Ray

 

[Rich Z]

Well, I guess you need to figure out just how you want to GET to that 100 hp+ level. You can rebuild your own engine with new performance goodies, pull your motor and drop in one already built, or go the forced induction route that just bolts onto your current motor.

Bear in mind that there may be blood letting involved. Smoking tires is literally money up in smoke. Clutches are designed to handle a limited amount of power being applied to them. And the same goes for the transmission and read end. So just adding power may not be the end of your spending money. The best advice I heard from someone was when they made the comment that if you need to scrimp and scrape to just get the money up for the power adder, then don't do it. Because the after effects with things breaking will certainly break your piggy bank.

Now as to the Z06, I assume you are talking about going to the C6 version. Yep, that would certainly fill the bill, and you would likely bypass some of the concerns I mentioned about just adding power to your own ride. But all things considered, you would still be spending a LOT of money for that 100 additional horse power. Probably much more so with the C6 than by building up your current ride. Figure out the price you would have to pay for a C6 Z06 even with yours in trade and that will give you a rough idea of what you have to play with in upgrading your current car. Don't forget the finance charges, either, because they STILL have to come out of your pocket, even if spread over 5 years or more.

But good luck in coming to a decision. Just spend as much time as you can reading about options before making a decision so you THOROUGLY understand what you are getting into. I just recently got STS twin turbos installed on my car, and at this point, I'm not really sure it was the best way for me to go. Maybe there WAS no "best" way at all....... Just have to decide what compromises and drawbacks were best to live with along the way...

 

[ynkedad]

RichZ

What kind of hp/tq increases did you get/notice from the twin turbo's?:wavey: Cost?

 

[Gannet]

Probably any of the better shops in Florida can do around that deal.

But RichZ brings up excellent points.

If you are content to keep your power gains moderate, and you don't thrash your car excessively, ancillary expenses like driveline upgrades/breakage may be avoided. Based on what I've learned so far (as I'm going through the same education process as you, only with a C5) is that somewhere around 100 rwhp gain may be about the upper limit between "no worries, mate", and the type of expenditures RichZ mentions.

There are four basic approaches:

Head/Cam car (H/C)
Big engine (427 or more)
Supercharger
Turbos

Each has advantages and disadvantages, and each makes sense at some budget/power points and not others. For each, there are various stages of tune from near-stock driveability to race car.

As a very rough guidline, here are the sort of numbers I have been gathering:

"Full" head/cam car, $8-10k in motor work, 100-150 (maybe 200) rwhp gain
Big engine (which usually implies full H/C with it) $14-22k, 200-300 rwhp gain
Supercharger, $8.5-10k (stock engine), 150-200 rwhp gain
Turbos, $10-12k (stock engine), 150-250 rwhp gain
More is available for more $$$, max-effort "street" engines are now around 1000 rwhp.

The higher you go in the power gain with each package, the more temperamental it is likely to get. And remember that when you get over about 100 rwhp gain, if you "use it" a lot, things are liable to start breaking at any time. Not saying they will, plenty of guys get lucky (these are basically very stout cars) but they can and do break and you should be prepared for that. Price out a transmission rebuild, new clutch, differential rebuild, etc.

Here's a suggestion, which is what I've decided to do myself: do it in smaller stages. That way you can spread out the cost and/or decide to stop at the point where any further increase is just too much money or too much compromise in the daily enjoyment of the car.

Typical stages:

1) Cold air induction (CAI) and exhaust. CAI would be something like a Callaway Honker. Exhaust would be headers and a new catback. CAI would be $3-600 installed, and headers w/catback would be $2-3.5k installed. Some guys split that up by making the very first mod a catback (I did). Altogether this should be worth 40 or so rwhp. Add another $500 and 10-15 rwhp for a dyno tune if you're so inclined.

2) Cam & "kit". $1600-3200 installed, depending on how fancy you get and any other upgrades you do (oil pump, etc.) A C6 mostly comes with the upgrades C5 guys tend to do. Power gain here is highly dependent on how radical of a cam you choose. Anywhere from 20-80 rwhp. The 20 hp one will drive just like stock, only better. The 80 hp one will be a nasty beast "race car" deal. Add another $500 for the dyno tune, which is required at this stage.

3) Heads, $1400-3500 installed, again "depending". 20-50 rwhp gain. A lot of guys combine steps 2 and 3. It saves money on labor, you don't have to buy the valve springs twice, and the cam and heads can be selected as a matched set. But of course it's more cash up front.

At this point you're at or past the "fully reliable" limits of the stock powertrain and you have to start budgeting powertrain upgrades along with any further performance upgrades. This is how guys can get $25-30k sunk in mods on blower/turbo cars without trying too hard.

If you know you want over 500 rwhp (which is a whole heaping ton of power, way more than a C6-Z06) it can be cheaper to start with a forced induction (FI, blower/turbo) setup right from the get-go.

Shops with a good rep in Florida include AntiVenom, RevXtreme, Next Level Performance (Mike Norris), and Horsepower Sales. I have visited the first three and felt they each had their strong and weak points, but I would probably let any of them work on my car.

That's the quick version of what I've learned from others, so far, fwiw. I emphasize that this is based on research, not personal experience. Get lots of qualified advice (which will sometimes conflict) and choose your poisin. Welcome to the addiction!

 

[Gannet]

Hmmm, I see I didn't really answer the question in your original title.

First, if the idea is to get to the same power as a C6 Z06, then you need 100 crankshaft HP, or about 85 rear-wheel hp. Most guys on forums &tc quote their gains in rwhp because most of us can get our cars on chassis dynos, but very few of us have our engines pulled to run them on engine dynos.

If it were me (and it is, on my car, 'cause I'm in the same boat as you), I'd be inclined to do the CAI, headers, catback, cam, and dyno tune. If you choose a mild or moderate cam this may be a little under your 85 hp number, but not by much. If you're willing to put up with the driveability compormises of a more radical or "racier" cam, then it could be considerably more than that. Yes, for the expenditure of $5-6k you can have a car with a fair amount more power than a stock C6 Z06.

So why do this instead of heads? Because this way you leave your factory engine internals and gasket seal alone. In my experience on past cars, an unopened stock engine seems to last longer and cause less trouble than one that's been "messed with". Just a generalization. Let's face it, very few shops really have the right equipment to go inside your engine properly (clean room, etc.)

If you decide this much power is "enough", great, you're done, and you can easily return the engine to stock should you get tired of it or want to sell (keep all the parts!). If you want more, you're all set to get the most benefit out of a set of nice heads.

A lot of shops offer head/cam packages in part because many customers already have the exhaust and CAI done. If you're in that situation and you want a big step up in power, a H/C makes a lot of sense. But doing everything at once on a stock car is a lot of money (around $8k) and it's also a huge change in the amount of power. Maybe better to go a little slower and get used to it.

That's what I'm going to do, CAI and headers first (already have the catback), then come back and do a cam. Right now I'm just doing more research as to exactly what parts I want to use. Lots of options. I'm hoping to meet more local owners of modified Vettes and pick their brains as to what has worked/not worked for them.

Anyway, just IMO. Good luck!

 

[CHASZ51]

For my Mods i only plan, headers, CAI, catback and gears. That should get me near LS2 power levels. Gears won't gain any power , but will add some snap on take off. And a tune is a must!

 

[Rich Z]

What kind of hp/tq increases did you get/notice from the twin turbo's?:wavey: Cost?

Well, here's a dyno chart after AntiVenom installed the twins:

A couple of things are noteworthy here.

(1) The STS twin turbos replace the mufflers. As such, the noise within the car has gotten MUCH louder. Maybe more than I really like. Which may be more than YOU really like as well. I've taken a video so I can let everyone hear the exhaust, but I haven't massaged it to put on this site yet..

(2) Going the smaller steps first, in my case, may have been a mistake. Headers ALWAYS seem like a good idea for a performance mod, but in my case, it may have been detrimental when combined with the STS rear mounted turbos. Notice on the graph that the REAL power increase doesn't hit until around 4,000 rpm. In some ways this is OK, as you generally are reving up the motor when you really need the power to be there. But (and this is a BIG but), the one time so far I really "got on it" I was in third and passed a couple of cars. You could really feel the turbo squirrels running in the cages and my Z just pressed me back into the seat. However, when I shifter to fourth, it just felt like all the pep had evaporated. I didn't make note of rpms or anything else, so this is not very scientific, I'm afraid. But looking at the power graph, if you are hitting 5500 rpm or so in third, and shifting to fourth puts you around 3,000 rpm, there should be a noticeable decrease in power on hand because the turbos stopped pumping as hard. So in effect, in order to get the most out of those turbos, I really need to keep the revs up into the power band, which in my case, is honestly maybe a bit higher than I would like it. I think having more boost hitting earlier (like around 3,000 rpm) would be MUCH better. When I was looking over all the info for the STS kits, that is what I thought I would be getting. Yeah, my car CAN put 500 horsepower down at the rear wheels. But I have to be at 6500 rpm to get it. How often and how long, realistically, will anyone WANT to do that?

Anyway, this brings up other issues to consider. BIG cams (and other power mods) can give big power, but they may be in the very uppermost RPM range limit of your engine, and lower end could suffer somewhat. So in that respect, you may not only have to decide how much power you want, and how you want to achieve it, but also WHERE in the RPM range it is really going to be and what is BEST for you. If you want power you can USE, it has to be where it is most useful to you.

 

[9T8Vette]

Richz those numbers looks sweet to me:yesnod: .But do make a point that some mods we do may help us in the 1 area and hurt us in another .They says if you put a larger intake and throttle body you can lose low end torque.I think that's one example of lose and gain. I am still a rookie when comes to these hi tech motors.You can say i old school.:rofl1:

 

[Rich Z]

Richz those numbers looks sweet to me:yesnod: .But do make a point that some mods we do may help us in the 1 area and hurt us in another .They says if you put a larger intake and throttle body you can lose low end torque.I think that's one example of lose and gain. I am still a rookie when comes to these hi tech motors.You can say i old school.:rofl1:

Yeah, me too...... I remember when doing a tuneup meant buying plugs, points, and a condenser. Most technical part about it was gapping the spark plugs correctly. Now, you basically need to be a rocket scientist, and even then, many of them are just experimenting on your car while they learn. Kind of like doctors having a "practice". Heck, I want someone who KNOWS what they are doing, not just "practicing"!

 

[ynkedad]

WOW!!! Top Notch.

Awesome:thumbsup:

I really appreciate you guys taking the time, to educate me with your responses.

Lots of Awesome ideas and detailed information.

Again, WOW!

Thanks fellas,

~Ray

 

[Gannet]

Awesome:thumbsup:

I really appreciate you guys taking the time, to educate me with your responses.

Lots of Awesome ideas and detailed information.

Again, WOW!

Thanks fellas,

~Ray

Think more about where and how you want more power, and what you want your engine to run like. Starting out with "I want what a C6 Z06 has" is fine, and may even be your final answer. But consider the answer that GM came up with for that question: 427 ci. Other parts of their "answer", of course, are that it has to be highly reliable, last 100k+ miles, get good fuel economy, pass emissions, be driveable by your granny, be smooth and quiet, etc. If you answer includes all those same requirements it is highly likely that the right answer is going to be something rather similar to what GM put together. They ain't dumb.

Here ya go: Lingenfelter 427/530, $20k installed, w/36m/36k warranty

If you're willing to compromise some of the things above, or heck, you may even want a racy "rump-rump" idle (for example), then more options open up and it can get a lot cheaper.

In general, there are good reasons the car comes from the factory the way it does. When you change it, you are almost always going to make one or more things worse in order to make one thing better. If you don't care about the "worse" things, cool. If you do, pita. Again as a generalization, the farther you get away from factory spec, the more things get "worse".

More generalizations: there are three basic classes of things you can trade off: driveability, reliability, expense. Avoiding trade-offs in one of those areas will involve more trade-offs in the others.

Sorry I'm so long-winded. I like writing this stuff out, it helps me think it through myself.

 

[Mekanic]

Mine wont be detailed at all, but it will get you your 100HP in an afternoon, or 300HP in the same time, as well as only costing you about $600.

Nitrous.

Completely safe (when jetted properly to match your fuel system)

Install yourself in a day, or at a shop in a couple hours.

instant HP when you want it, stock when you don't (AKA: Rain)

Removeable in a tiny amount of time for going to the dealer.

And a fraction the price of internal mods, your Z should be able to handle a 150 wet shot without a drop of trouble, you want to be safer, jet for 100HP, or 70, or 55, whatever you want.

And say you're at a track, and the traction is poor that night, take 10 minutes and re-jet down a stage or 2 for more traction...track is hooking like crazy? /Jet up a stage for even more.

IMHO, for quick easy, safe, reliable, and inexpensive HP, Nitrous is still king.

 

[Rich Z]

Yeah, a lot or people seem to use nitrous, but to be honest, I never even seriously considered it myself. Why? Well I guess it stems mostly from the old days when it was not all that uncommon for someone to blow their engine up with the stuff. Sure things are better and safer now, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it.

Also, I thought the logistics of it all might be a headache. Where do you get bottles filled (especially around Tallahassee)? How long does a bottle last? Where do you store the spare bottles safely and legally? Your power only lasts as long as the bottle has gas in it, so it could be embarrassing if you forgot to fill it after last weekend and have just a puff left when you REALLY want it. How much does nitrous cost? Although the initial expense may be cheap, you now have a recurring bill directly related to how much your right foot tells you to use it. I don't know how much it costs, so maybe this is a negligible concern.

ALL of the other power adders are THERE when you want it and will not run out at embarrassing moments. And realistically, nitrous (in my opinion) is really only worthwhile if you intend to drag race (either on a track or from stoplight to stoplight). It's not really something you can just turn on and then drive all day like that. Or heck, maybe you can. Carry spares in the trunk and just swap them out when one goes dry... :shrug01:

Again, much of my opinion may be based mostly on ignorance, but it just didn't seem to be what I was looking for....... YMMV, of course..

 

[Mekanic]

Also, I thought the logistics of it all might be a headache. Where do you get bottles filled (especially around Tallahassee)?

Where I live there is NOTHING, no tracks, no drags, nada....but there are 3 shops that do fills, just gotta look around

How long does a bottle last?

Going to the drags 2-3 times a month, as well as stop light runs, 1 10# bottle lasted 3 weeks to 1 month.

Where do you store the spare bottles safely and legally?

Anywhere really, in the trunk, at the house, in a trailer. Although, We've never had extras. When you watch shows like "Pinks" and the like where they're swapping bottles is for 2 reasons.

1: Bottle is frozen, since they jet SO high, and they're hot-lapping, there is no time for the bottle to warm no charging system in car means no bottle heater, replace with warm bottle till other thaws.

2. Bottle is empty. The major drag guys build engines around the nitrous plate, and jet around 300-500 HP. Like drilling a hole in an aresol can, itll be empty faster than a smaller hole.

Your power only lasts as long as the bottle has gas in it, so it could be embarrassing if you forgot to fill it after last weekend and have just a puff left when you REALLY want it.

Oh that sucks ass. Wouldn't it be embarrasing if you forgot to fill up with gas after the trip and died right as a Honda was revving at you?

Common sence, make sure you fill your bottle!

How much does nitrous cost? Although the initial expense may be cheap, you now have a recurring bill directly related to how much your right foot tells you to use it. I don't know how much it costs, so maybe this is a negligible concern.

We pay $8 for a 10# fill.

ALL of the other power adders are THERE when you want it and will not run out at embarrassing moments. And realistically, nitrous (in my opinion) is really only worthwhile if you intend to drag race (either on a track or from stoplight to stoplight). It's not really something you can just turn on and then drive all day like that. Or heck, maybe you can. Carry spares in the trunk and just swap them out when one goes dry... :shrug01:

Again, much of my opinion may be based mostly on ignorance, but it just didn't seem to be what I was looking for....... YMMV, of course..

Its definatley not something you turn on and leave on, its not great for road racing, except in passing...if the track allows it. And its worthless in autocrossing.

But for driving, street and strip, Nitrous is awesome. And again, totally safe.

A good wet system, as well as window switches werent around when people were destroying engines on nitrous. Wet systems inject nitrous AND fuel into the system, drasticly decreasing the chances of dentonation.

Dry systems are now almost as safe as wet, from window switches, and throttle position switches, which only allow nitrous to flow at WOT, when the engine is getting enough fuel to sustain the combustion with the added oxygen that the nitrous pushes in.

Basicly flip the arming switch for the solenoids and mash the gas, no button like we've all seen on FnF movies, when the throttle is at 100%, the nitrous solenoid flows, and power is increased.

Just like your turbo system, you had to have an adequite fuel system to match the new amount of incoming air. too much air+not enough fuel = boom. But your system is designed with the correct size turbines, and boost levels to not out-do the stock fuel system.

The same can be achieved with nitrous. Hell a Cavalier fuel system can hand;e a 35 shot all day with no worries. On a Corvette, you can do 150 with no modification, and 100 or less is totally gentile.

Hope that clears some things up.

Also...this was my longest post in like 5 years lol.

 

[Rich Z]

Well actually, I for one, appreciate the in depth description of what nitrous is like these days. More detail then I have seen anywhere else..... Heck, my mind can be changed if the facts are appropriately thrown at me.

Doesn't the car have to be tuned specifically for nitrous at WOT? Seems to me the A/F ratio would be screwy if not. But then what happens if you run WOT without the nitrous? Certainly the tune couldn't be the same both ways, now could it?

 

[Mekanic]

Well actually, I for one, appreciate the in depth description of what nitrous is like these days. More detail then I have seen anywhere else..... Heck, my mind can be changed if the facts are appropriately thrown at me.

Doesn't the car have to be tuned specifically for nitrous at WOT? Seems to me the A/F ratio would be screwy if not. But then what happens if you run WOT without the nitrous? Certainly the tune couldn't be the same both ways, now could it?

I'm the same way lol.

Car does not have to be tuned for nitrous at WOT. Inherantly, all cars, be it EFI or carb run pig rich at WOT to over compensate for the large amounts of air.

Thats basicly all the jet chips and so on do, is change the fuel map in the upper RPM range to stay closer to 12, most cars go into the 17s on a wideband at WOT.

Basicly when the nitrous enters the manifold the nitrogen and oxygen are seperated, the nitrogen acts to super cool (see sub 150's) the intake charge, and thus create denser, more powerful explosions, while the oxygen mixes and makes the mix burn MUCH hotter.

SO, taking advantage of the stock programming you smooth the AF mixture, lower temp on your intake charge, and effectivly rasise the octane of the fuel by 30+ points.

With the system disabled, it runs just like stock.

Now if you want to go extreme with the nitrous setup, you will need to be tuned for it, as well as larger injectors, and possibly a higher flow pump. So that the fuel map can run in line with the added air nitrous provides, to prevent a lean condition and dentonation.

Thats why propper jetting is so important, with the rich condition present in te stock map, depending on the size of the engine, injectors, and how rich it is, are all determining factors in choosing the right shot to match your stock map.

With all those factors figured in, a corvette can safely handle a 75-100 shot very easily, 150 if you have a nice wideband installed so you can make sure everything stays okay, 200-400 with the mentioned modifications.

The best way to look at nitrous is a chemical form of forced induction, all the same rules apply, a stock corvette can rock all day with 5-6 PSI of boost, but if you want to run 20, some fuel and bottom end mods are in order.

 

[REDAZ]

Recently I had the pleasure of owning a brand new 06 Z06....for all of 5 days. I had bought it for myself after selling my 05 LMB sweetheart. (Feeling sorry for myself.)
My boss in another country found out and offered me way too much money for it plus shipping. It's gone.
I went straight out and bought an 07 stripped coupe....except for Z51, that is. The sticker was the shortest (and sweetest) I had ever seen.

Now, flamers get ready, for my trype driving...light to light and generally just cruising about looking here and there for other Vettes to wave at....the Z did nothing for me that the 400HP is doing. It was way cool and the ego thing is alive and well. Still the 100 horses missing....is just not missing unless you are out to break some laws or just plain want to find another way to kill yourself.
When I break my coupe in it will be turned into a nasty animal that the Z will need to mod for.
Check out this real nasty sounding DSOM c6 on You Tube. All the video clip is of the car sitting there running in the driveway. This is what I want. The Z is not that much different....sound is a little better but not 30K better.
Only my opinion.....I just drove them both back to back and there aint that much difference in my neighborhood where the LEO's are just waiting. I have yet to use 4th gear anywhere!

 

[Gannet]

Well actually, I for one, appreciate the in depth description of what nitrous is like these days. More detail then I have seen anywhere else..... Heck, my mind can be changed if the facts are appropriately thrown at me.

I agree. Good posts. :thumbsup:

I had been thinking of maybe adding nitrous down the road, not as my primary mod, but as a booster.

Question: do you drive around with the bottle valve open? Or do you open it up before going out for some fun? Or do you have one of those electric valves?

I had been thinking this way: 450 or so rwhp is pretty easily attainable with a H/C setup and all the bolt-ons. That would be usable on the street, autox, whatever. Then add a 150 shot on top of that for "extreme situations" and that should be enough to give almost anyone a serious run for their money.

I'll never be able to afford to keep up with the big guys in the HP wars, and it wouldn't be practical with a dialy driver in any case. But it seems like 450 +150 is pretty doable for a DD and at a halfway reasonable price.

But I'm like Rich, nitrous still scares me. Too many memories of seeing other guys toast their cars.

 

[Mekanic]

Uaually you will leave the bottle closed untill you are goinh out for some "fun"

Although the remote bottle openers ROCK for when fun comes and finds you :thumbs:

 

[ynkedad]

Done some thinking and...

I do believe i'll go the CAI, Catback and exhaust road at first. Making sure I pick the right systems, whereas I don't get the dreaded drone.

I got the HP bug and wanted power NOW!:crazy03:
But, As mentioned by Gannet, I should get used to the additional power as I go. This way I won't hurt anyone or the car.
Although Nitrous seems to be an inexpensive way to go, compared to others, It scares me. (Ignorance will do that to a person).

Wants or Needs:
I want to increase HP without sacraficing TQ or the integrity of the car.
I want the car to sound bad azz when it starts, it's idling, taking off etc.
I'm not really into racing, (but one never knows) especially on public streets.
Just some radical driving, getting on it once in awhile, or trying to impress others at times.
Just the idea of The extra power being there if and when it's needed is comforting.
It sounds like the mods Gannet suggested, are exactly what i'm looking for at this stage of the game.

I don't want the wife pizzed off, because the car is way too loud to enjoy the ride though.

Wife pizzed :NoNo: = me not happy camper
Thanks,

~Ray:thumbsup: