• Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.

I saw this sign while approaching a hiking trail.

Rich Z said:
Be that all that it may, if I or anyone else is just walking through a Wildlife Management District, the only reason I can fathom a LEO demanding to do a pat down (ie: a SEARCH for weapons) if I have not given him or her any overt reason to fear for their safety around me, is that the LEO is just being a bonafide prick about it and abusing their "authority" (power).

It is my OPINION that Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights was penned exactly for the reason of trying to prevent this sort of abuse from happening to the citizens of this country.

Perhaps we just lost sight of what this thread was originally about..... ;)
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I see where you're coming from Rich but the courts have decided that there's a difference. I assumed it would be a 'search' but Gordon has explained the difference. Like you, I still don't like it but the officer would have to justify his actions.

If either of us were in their shoes I think our opinions would be different. Besides, if we're not pricks or haven't given them a reason to suspect we might be violating the law we're not going to have a problem cause we won't be frisked.

This thread has been a learning experience.
 
This has been a really good thread , with some good research and valid points that kinda morphed into different areas about carrying concealed.

I wanted to throw out a couple of thoughts I had, and they are in no particular order.

If we carry concealed wether as an off duty LEO, a retired LEO or as a licensed civilian, the key factor, in my mind, is to make sure that your gun is CONCEALED! If it is not, you stand a good chance of being reported to the police by a concerned or scared citizen ( everyone has a cell phone! ) and you then put a responding officer on the spot! You will be patted down, probably while proned out until you can assure the officer that you are a good guy! And you may still have some consequences to face.
Take a look at yourself in the mirror if you think that maybe the outline of your gun is visible in your pocket, waistband, or whatever, and make necessary changes before you leave the house.

When I'm off duty and out of my jurisdiction, I'm going to be a good witness to almost any crime I see.

Some good points were mentioned in the thread about when anyone should display or use a gun and I think we all realize that the gun only comes out to save a life..... PERIOD!

If we are in a situation where the gun does come out, or God forbid, used, REMEMBER....any responding LEO's rolling up on a scene are not going to know that you are a good guy. :shrug01: Follow their instructions to the letter! Have your credentials with you!

Carrying is a huge responsibility none of us can take it lightly no matter how long we've been doing it.

I apologize if this post makes me come across as a "know it all" or self proclaimed "expert", as I am neither. I have been a certified Police Firearms Instructor since 1978 and this subject matter has always been important to me.

Again, just a few extra thoughts for a really good thread. ;)
 
C6Flatfoot said:
If we carry concealed wether as an off duty LEO, a retired LEO or as a licensed civilian, the key factor, in my mind, is to make sure that your gun is CONCEALED!

Again, just a few extra thoughts for a really good thread. ;)
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We need and I value information from folks with real life experience, especially from LEO's, retired or active.

I know if my weapon is detected I may be in trouble. Does that apply to off duty or retired LEO's?
 
Bob K said:
I know if my weapon is detected I may be in trouble. Does that apply to off duty or retired LEO's?
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Bob.. I think "Yes it would" ....."BUT" to a much lesser extent...as long as the off duty LEO or retired LEO was not being an A** Hole, drunk, or doing something stupid.... you know what I mean...

Using my experience on the GSP when I was pulled over, I showed my ID and told the trooper I had a gun in the car, no problem as everything else was in order, and yes I was speeding (about 80ish in a 65..

I bet if I were going 100+ he WOULD have checked a lot further, and maybe even took some type of enforcement action... ???
 
jpee said:
Bob.. I think "Yes it would" ....."BUT" to a much lesser extent...as long as the off duty LEO or retired LEO was not being an A** Hole, drunk, or doing something stupid.... you know what I mean...

Using my experience on the GSP when I was pulled over, I showed my ID and told the trooper I had a gun in the car, no problem as everything else was in order, and yes I was speeding (about 80ish in a 65..

I bet if I were going 100+ he WOULD have checked a lot further, and maybe even took some type of enforcement action... ???
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Don't you remember the ticket I got? He followed me in a unmarked car at 100 MPH but wrote me up for 80. Thanks for the reply to my question.
 
jpee said:
Bob.. I think "Yes it would" ....."BUT" to a much lesser extent...as long as the off duty LEO or retired LEO was not being an A** Hole, drunk, or doing something stupid.... you know what I mean...

Using my experience on the GSP when I was pulled over, I showed my ID and told the trooper I had a gun in the car, no problem as everything else was in order, and yes I was speeding (about 80ish in a 65..

I bet if I were going 100+ he WOULD have checked a lot further, and maybe even took some type of enforcement action... ???
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Well, this of course, brings up the question of why any ex or off duty LEO would be treated any differently than any other citizen when caught breaking the law.

Professional courtesy? What exactly is that?
 
Rich Z said:
Well, this of course, brings up the question of why any ex or off duty LEO would be treated any differently than any other citizen when caught breaking the law.

Professional courtesy? What exactly is that?
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What kind of work do you do? For example lets say you were a dentist, and needed a filling, and the Dentist who worked in the same building was going to do the filling, ya think he might charge you less than he'd charge me ???

Or if you were a barber, do you think you could get a haircut for less than I'd pay....??

If you answer NO to both of these, I'd bet you were not liked very much in the business..... just a thought.....

Do you think a waitress pays less for dinner at her place of employment...

ALSO if you were a LEO and stopped a car, and two big gorillas got out and jumped you... and was using you to mop up the pavement, ya think you would appreciate it if "I" stopped and pulled my Glock out and "Strongly Suggested" they STOP or they would be breathing through the top of their head...

You get the point....I have a video (taken from the cars dash camera) where a Va. State Trooper was getting his A** kicked by a 6'8 340 lb gorilla.... an off duty cop from NJ stopped and shot the attacker (who had a 38 cal. revolver also!!

So YES when I was on duty I would give "Professional Courtesy" to other LEO... maybe if he was drunk and totally out of control, it would be different, but I was never in that situation...
 
jpee said:
What kind of work do you do? For example lets say you were a dentist, and needed a filling, and the Dentist who worked in the same building was going to do the filling, ya think he might charge you less than he'd charge me ???

Or if you were a barber, do you think you could get a haircut for less than I'd pay....??

If you answer NO to both of these, I'd bet you were not liked very much in the business..... just a thought.....

Do you think a waitress pays less for dinner at her place of employment...

ALSO if you were a LEO and stopped a car, and two big gorillas got out and jumped you... and was using you to mop up the pavement, ya think you would appreciate it if "I" stopped and pulled my Glock out and "Strongly Suggested" they STOP or they would be breathing through the top of their head...

You get the point....I have a video (taken from the cars dash camera) where a Va. State Trooper was getting his A** kicked by a 6'8 340 lb gorilla.... an off duty cop from NJ stopped and shot the attacker (who had a 38 cal. revolver also!!

So YES when I was on duty I would give "Professional Courtesy" to other LEO... maybe if he was drunk and totally out of control, it would be different, but I was never in that situation...
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In any of your examples (dentist, waitress, barber), were any of those people caught breaking the law by the other members of those professions? :rolleyes:
 
Rich Z said:
In any of your examples (dentist, waitress, barber), were any of those people caught breaking the law by the other members of those professions? :rolleyes:
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Doesn't make any difference... as a LEO the Officer has the discretion as to what he wants to do.. i.e. give a "Verbal warning, or a "Written Warning" or write a summons if "Deemed Necessary"

If a NJ Trooper pulled me over of 80 in a 65 zone and thought a "Verbal Warning" would suffice, thats all he is "REQUIRED" to do... if he thought I deserved a "Summons" he would/could do so....

In your case....with your "attitude" I can see INSTANT SUMMONS but that is only IMO.... another LEO say Bob K (if he were a LEO) might see fit to let you go with just a verbal warning...

So you see its up to the individual LEO as to what action he/she wants to take!!

As they said on "NYPD Blue" ... "Lets Be Careful Out There" Some of us have to be more careful than others because of the "Impression" they give to the LEO who stopped them.....:thumbsup:
 
jpee said:
Doesn't make any difference... as a LEO the Officer has the discretion as to what he wants to do.. i.e. give a "Verbal warning, or a "Written Warning" or write a summons if "Deemed Necessary"

If a NJ Trooper pulled me over of 80 in a 65 zone and thought a "Verbal Warning" would suffice, thats all he is "REQUIRED" to do... if he thought I deserved a "Summons" he would/could do so....

In your case....with your "attitude" I can see INSTANT SUMMONS but that is only IMO.... another LEO say Bob K (if he were a LEO) might see fit to let you go with just a verbal warning...

So you see its up to the individual LEO as to what action he/she wants to take!!

As they said on "NYPD Blue" ... "Lets Be Careful Out There" Some of us have to be more careful than others because of the "Impression" they give to the LEO who stopped them.....:thumbsup:
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So you are stating that it is perfectly OK for LEOs to treat non-LEOs differently from LEOs in the performance of their duties? That the laws being broken by LEOs should be treated differently than the same laws being broken by regular citizens? In effect, "do as we tell you to do, not as WE can get away with."?

And you wonder why LEOs have issues with the public's perceptions of them?
 
Rich Z said:
So you are stating that it is perfectly OK for LEOs to treat non-LEOs differently from LEOs in the performance of their duties? That the laws being broken by LEOs should be treated differently than the same laws being broken by regular citizens? In effect, "do as we tell you to do, not as WE can get away with."?

And you wonder why LEOs have issues with the publics perceptions of them?
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YES !! Its called a "PERK" of the job!! And I have no problem of the publics perception of me when I was "On the job"

I'm not to familiar on how to work this forum, but if you or maybe Bob can post a "Poll" we'll see what most think of LEO either + or - ...

If you can please start a poll...:thumbsup:
 
jpee said:
YES !! Its called a "PERK" of the job!! And I have no problem of the publics perception of me when I was "On the job"

I'm not to familiar on how to work this forum, but if you or maybe Bob can post a "Poll" we'll see what most think of LEO either + or - ...

If you can please start a poll...:thumbsup:
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Seriously? You believe that being able to violate the law and be excused from such violations because you ARE a LEO is a "perk" of the job? Quite simply, the law does NOT apply to you because you enforce the laws?

I don't know whether that qualifies for a :lmao: :lmao: or a :nonod: :nonod:
 
Rich Z said:
Seriously? You believe that being able to violate the law and be excused from such violations because you ARE a LEO is a "perk" of the job? Quite simply, the law does NOT apply to you because you enforce the laws?

I don't know whether that qualifies for a :lmao: :lmao: or a :nonod: :nonod:
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I don't take it personally Rich and that's not what he's saying. He may cut a LEO a little more slack but I would expect that. They're brothers but an ass is a ass and he'll get the works regardless.
 
Bob K said:
I don't take it personally Rich and that's not what he's saying. He may cut a LEO a little more slack but I would expect that. They're brothers but an ass is a ass and he'll get the works regardless.
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Thank you Bob !!... You are right on the $$ ... YES.. I most likely would "Cut another LEO" a little more slack than someone else...

But on the same page, how many civilians would stop and jump in if I were getting my A$$ kicked on the side of the road....

99% of LEO WOULD stop and help another LEO who was in trouble...THAT is why I and MOST other LEO's will cut fellow LEO's some slack..

It does NOT mean they have "Cart Blanch" to do as they please... there IS a difference between letting a guy slide for 15 mph over the limit, and letting a DRUNK driver go..

in other words if another LEO was DRUNK ...I doubt many other LEO's would just let it slide....

Remember we are talking about minor violations.. 15 -20 mph over the limit... I have SEEN LEO's arrested for doing 115 in Ct. The trooper towed his car and physically arrested him...

So being a LEO is NOT a "Get out of Jail Free" card !!
 
I don't even stop anyone unless they're 15 over. Unless it's a school zone....but I cut Joe Citizen alot of slack anyway, so I'm going to cut my fellow officer some slack as well. We do have discretion.
 
85vette said:
I don't even stop anyone unless they're 15 over. Unless it's a school zone....but I cut Joe Citizen alot of slack anyway, so I'm going to cut my fellow officer some slack as well. We do have discretion.
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Yes, discretion is certainly a welcome relief from someone who would be hard nosed, and strictly "by the books", I would think. But the discretion that this is about is based on is simply someone flashing a LEO ID and being given MORE consideration than anyone else in an identical situation.

So would you cut an LEO or ex-LEO more slack then you would Joe Citizen in exactly the same circumstances? If you pull someone over and you feel that they should get a ticket (let's say 20 over), does it cause you to change your mind about that ticket if you find out that they are an LEO instead of just a "Joe Citizen"?

That is the issue I am bringing up. The law is the law. Unless LEOs are specifically exempted from such laws, then aren't they obligated to obey them the same as the rest of us are? If a private citizen would get the ticket written for a specific violation then why not the ex-LEO or LEO in plain clothes, off duty, etc.?

Actually, do most LEOs flash their identification with the expectation to get some slack? Is this ETHICAL to have such expectation and try to act on it accordingly?

Seriously, LEOs SHOULD even be held to a higher standard then us common folks anyway. They should be leading by example, not expecting to get "perks" because of their position. Show US by your example how we should obey the laws. Even when in uniform and while driving your cruiser, you SHOULD be obeying the law just as is expected of us. If you have a valid legitimate reason for trying to get to a crime scene or some other actual emergency, then fine, get there as quickly as you safely can. But otherwise, I believe those posted speed signs apply to EVERYONE, in or out of uniform and whether or not they are, or have been, a LEO.

No, I'm not saying that all LEOs should be hard asses in all situations. What I'm saying is that it is not FAIR nor ethical to allow other LEOs special considerations over and above what would be offered to any other citizen when a law has been violated. It gives an impression to the general public that is not flattering at all to LEOs in general, in my opinion.
 
Rich Z,

It almost sounds as if you may think that all LEO's drive like heck anytime and anyplace thinking that they can "badge" their way out of a citation or maybe even an arrest.

This simply is not the case! Any new officer who comes on the job thinking along those lines doesn't last long in the career.

Good officers don't put other officers on the spot.

I can recall giving just two warnings (professional courtesy)to off duty LEO's compared to thousands issued to civilians over the course of my career.

Career cops know that they can't keep their job if they rack up tickets and that is also a factor we think of when extending professional courtesy for the unintentional infraction. The professional courtesy may be good for one instance and is not a get out of jail pass. Any repeat infraction could result in a citation and/or disciplinary action.

I think that an officer who has received a warning is much more appreciative of it than the average person who may just laugh it off and consider themselves lucky this time!

Cops are just people and we make mistakes like everyone.

Professional courtesy does not apply if an officer commits a criminal traffic offense or any criminal act.

We do share a brotherhood and take care of our own in a way that civilians cannot understand.

Great cars
Great forum
Great people

I like it here! :thumbsup:

Thanks for reading
c6flatfoot
 
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Thanks to all who got involved with your emails and phone calls.
 
This is freakin' stupid a post can't even be edited. How the h*** do you know if the post is what is intended. Stupid I say! STUPID! :banghead:
 
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