• Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.

427 engine (part 2) - RHS block

Yeah, I just ordered a set of 3/8 wobble extensions. That 36 inch guy is right pricey....

I took a look under the car and from the top, and I just can't even see the other bolts on the bell housing that would be above the center line. So I had to break out my flexible shaft camera to see if I could see anything that way. First let me back up a bit.

Just out of curiosity, I went back to the old videos I took while the car was out at Harwood's shop to see what the bell housing looked like, and also to see if Harwood put those bolts in place there.

bell_housing_01.jpg


bell_housing_02.jpg


Yep, looks to me that Harwood did in fact have those bell housing bolts in place. This is right before the drivetrain was put together with the engine and then mated with the car. So it looks to me that those bell housing bolts were in place.

So here's a pic I found online of the bell housing that I have.

bell_housing_03.jpg


I made notations near the bolts that hold the bell housing to the engine block, which can be compared with the bolts in the photos above this one.

Now, back to the flexible camera shots. All of the following pics were taken from the top of the engine, btw. I started on the passenger side, and it appears that both bolts A and B are in place. I didn't try to see if they were torqued down, however, not that I could have gotten a wrench onto them anyway.

BTW, I may have these reversed, as it was pretty tough looking at the photos and figuring out where exactly I was looking at.

bell_housing_bolt_a.jpg


bell_housing_bolt_b.jpg


Then I went over to the driver side. I believe it is bolt E that is the one I found loose and partially walked out of the threads. I didn't take any further pics of it this time. I tried to find the other two bolts C and D with the flexible camera, and I THINK the only one I was able to find is the one for bolt C.

bell_housing_bolt_c.jpg


I'm not positive about this, though, as I found another area that looked like it might be where a bolt goes, but it may just be the tab that is at about the 1 o'clock position in the main picture. I just couldn't get the angle on the flexible camera shaft such that I could see into any threaded hole.

But it appears that at least one other bell housing bolt is completely missing. I'll try again to find where that other bolt is supposed to be, but it won't surprise me in the least to find out that it is missing as well.

So, now the question is, what will it take to simply get to those missing bolt holes to put bolts in them and tighten up the loose one?
 
Certainly looks like C should have a bolt...just comparing between that and the top image reviewing all the bolts and holes. The question is, just how long are those bolts? Wouldn't doubt you'll need more clearance than what you currently have.
 
It's pretty hard to tell how much clearance I have just looking at those pics, but in "C" that is just a piece of convoluted tubing covering we are seeing there, and not the firewall. I guess I do need to check to see if I have the remaining bolts in the crap I had in the trunk when I brought the car home. I know they are a 13mm head. I could pull out one of the bolts at the bottom on the cover plate to see exactly what they look like, I suppose.

I wonder what the chances are that anyone else had to try to get to the bell housing bolts in a situation like this that would know the best way to approach it?
 
shakedown067 said:
Yeah, I'm sure you aren't the first and unfortunately won't be the last. Good luck!
Click to expand...

Well, with any luck, someone will be able to give me some pointers on the BEST way to tackle this. I'm still waiting on some tools to come in, which certainly won't be here till next week, so I'm in no hurry. I may order some of those "bendy" ratchet wrenches as perhaps I might need to get to one of those bolts at an odd angle where they will come in handy.

How do you fabricate a wrench? If I need something that is pretty much a custom angle, can I heat a wrench with a torch and just bend it? Or will it snap instead? Or am I just getting in WAY over my head with this?
 
I've seen guys heat and bend their own wrenches...I just don't think they typically last long once you do that. Just use some disposable harbor freight wrenches! I've even seen open end wrenches welded to bars, like rebar, for added torqueability. You'd just need to grind the chrome off first of course.
 
I was able to get the flex camera shaft up to the spot where bolt #D should be, and yeah, looks like that one is missing as well.

bell_housing_bolt_d.jpg


So basically there were NO bolts holding the bell housing torqued properly in place on the driver's side of it. I'm thinking that perhaps that one bolt that is still there, but was sticking out about a quarter inch when I found it, might have been at least snugged up against the bell housing when Mike Carnahan was tuning the car, and perhaps that was enough to keep the housing from flexing under power, and why we didn't hear that noise then. Since that time, I took the car out three more times, and possibly the bolt then vibrated loose to the point where I heard that horrendous noise on 07-05-2012 and I then found it on visual inspection on 07-10-2012. So possibly with the bolt not even snug against the bell housing, that then allowed the flexing to take place (hoping that the bell housing didn't get cracked because of it) and that noise I heard on 07-05 to then exhibit itself.

Well, that's all speculation on my part, of course, but it all sorta fits the evidence, I think.

I dug through the box of bolts that was in my trunk when I brought the car home, and there are all kinds of bolts there with 13mm heads on them that look like they would work on the bell housing mounting. Different lengths, though, so I'm not sure what length bolts need to be used for those two missing ones. But it's apparently not because he didn't have the bolts available that Aaron didn't put them in place where they were needed to be.
 
The rule for how long a bolt should be in aluminum is The tapped hole should be 2 1/2 times longer than the diameter of the threads. So if you have a bolt that goes into a 10 MM hole the bolt should be 25 MM long. Hope this helps you find the right length bolts in your box of left overs.

Don't forget to add the thickness of the tab on the bell housing to the length of the bolt.

If the thread depth to bolt contact is not long enough the bolt will not be able to hold the bell housing onto the engine.

You might want to experiment with getting some small round earth magnets to put in the bottom of a deep well socket. That will help you hold a bolt in the socket while you fish it into the hole on the bell housing. If you have trouble finding small round earth magnets look at Loews or Home Depot at the cabinet door hardware. They have a button that goes into the cabinet and holds the door shut with and earth magnet.
 
Thanks. I may pull out one of the bolts on the bottom of the bell housing to see how long that one is, since I'm guessing they should be the same length. The flanges on the bell housing look pretty thick, so I can probably use that as a guide.

I'm asking around trying to find anyone who has faced this challenge before to see how best to tackle this. I'm hoping for a solution that isn't going to be too painful. If the drivetrain still has to come out, this discovery is not really going to have gained me a hell of a whole lot.
 
Now that you have the pictures of the missing bolts you might ask the fellow at the dealer that you talked too about the noise. If any one should know what is involved in getting those bolts in and tighten he should. He may have experience in how to do the job and make it look easy.
 
Rich, you could always get the proper torque value for those bolts and make sure that
all of them you can get to are torqued to the correct value, then take it for another
spin. If the noise goes away, or gets much quieter, it's a pretty good indication that
you found the problem. I seem to think it was repeatable, so if you can't make
it repeat after tightening the bolts you can tighten, I would bite the bullet and do
what is necessary to get them all in and torqued to specs. And if the noise starts
to come back while you are testing, bring it home and check the bolts to see if
they have come loose.
Good Luck!:thumbsup:
Andy :wavey:
 
Last edited:
CorvetteJohn said:
Now that you have the pictures of the missing bolts you might ask the fellow at the dealer that you talked too about the noise. If any one should know what is involved in getting those bolts in and tighten he should. He may have experience in how to do the job and make it look easy.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I talked to Shane at Champion Chevy earlier today, and he says there really isn't any real easy way to get to those bolts. Headers have to come off, tunnel plate come out, and drop the drive train just enough to get a flex extension up there to put the bolts in and tighten them. He said it will likely only take a few hours. So I'm debating what to do. I would likely spend a LOT more in more tools and equipment to do it myself than to just let him do it. And I'll be quite honest about it, I'm about tired of this DIY stuff right about now. I just want to drive my damned car.

If I pulled off the intake manifold and valve cover on the driver side, I MIGHT be able to get to those bolt holes. But suppose I get to them and there isn't enough clearance between the bolt hole and the firewall to fit the bolt in there? Then that was all for nothing. Shane seemed to think it wouldn't work trying to get to the bolts from the top, and I'm sure he's seen more than his fair share of Corvettes over the years.

Or I could take off the header on that side and the tunnel plate and try to see if I could reach the bolts myself from underneath as Shane suggested as the way to do it. And if I can't? Well then I either need to put it back together again to drive the car to the dealership, or I spend the money and buy a transmission jack or two and hope for the best. And of course Connie is worried to death I'm going to hurt my arm again. Or worse.

And yeah, I know I should probably take out the drive train to check everything Aaron Scott did (or did not do), but I'm about wore out with this. I was honestly thinking about approaching Aaron to fix this problem that in my opinion he caused with my car, but I'll be quite honest about it, I just don't trust him. No, I just scratched that idea completely.

If I take it to Shane, at least he can put a professional eye on what he can see and let me know if he thinks there are any other issues. Plus I want him to drive it and feel that clutch to see what he thinks. So maybe, that really will be the best road to take.... sigh....

Well, I guess maybe I'll put another gun up for sale to help finance this latest crap.
 
navy2kcoupe said:
Rich, you could always get the proper torque value for those bolts and make sure that
all of them you can get to are torqued to the correct value, then take it for another
spin. If the noise goes away, or gets much quieter, it's a pretty good indication that
you found the problem. I seem to think it was repeatable, so if you can't make
it repeat after tightening the bolts you can tighten, I would bite the bullet and do
what is necessary to get them all in and torqued to specs. And if the noise starts
to come back while you are testing, bring it home and check the bolts to see if
they have come loose.
Good Luck!:thumbsup:
Andy :wavey:
Click to expand...

Andy, the only bolts for the bell housing that I can actually get a wrench on are the two at the bottom that are on the bottom removable part of the bell housing. The other bolts I can see (only with the help of the flexible shaft camera), just are not accessible at all to get a wrench on them, as best I can tell.

I am assuming that since they did not loosen up, then there is a good chance they are torqued down properly. But of course I would want to check that to be certain.

I can see the loose bottom bolt on the driver side, but I don't have anything that I can get on that bolt to tighten it. Except my fingertips, that is. The angle is wrong for anything I have, and very tight quarters there. So my options are severely limited, it seems.

BTW, the torque values for those bolts are 35 ft./lbs.

But with those four out of seven bolts on the passenger side and bottom ONLY being tight (I am assuming) no way I want to chance cracking the bell housing by torquing up the engine to try to recreate that noise. If the bell housing is not already cracked, it's probably a darn miracle. I didn't see any cracks with the flexible shaft camera, but the resolution on that thing isn't all that great.
 
My vote is for Shane. What good is it to get it fixed if your elbow won't let you drive it.

O and my money is on the drive line being ok or else it would not have been able to be run on the dino without breaking.

I really think if you get the bell housing secured the noise will go away and the clutch will seem better to you
 
CorvetteJohn said:
My vote is for Shane. What good is it to get it fixed if your elbow won't let you drive it.

O and my money is on the drive line being ok or else it would not have been able to be run on the dino without breaking.

I really think if you get the bell housing secured the noise will go away and the clutch will seem better to you
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think that is the way I am leaning.

As for the car being on the dyno, quite honestly the ONLY time I personally witnessed that was on 09/24/10 and 10/04/10, which is BEFORE the new clutch, transmission, and differential were put in by Aaron Scott. The drivetrain was pulled on or about 10/21/10 for that to take place.

I asked Aaron MANY times to let me know when he was going to be putting my car on the dyno so I could drive up there to Thomasville and get some video, and he NEVER did that. I would always hear from him after Jim Smith had been there and gone, with no plans to putting the car on the dyno till he got back. So, quite frankly, I don't have any actual evidence at all that my car was actually on the dyno after the drivetrain was put back together by Aaron. Same goes for when the engine was pulled out because of the oil pan bolts, head gasket failure, and washer that had damaged piston #7. The car came back from that other shop (Jon McGees Auto Service) around 04-12-11, and although I went up to Aaron's a few times after that date, again, I never saw the car on the dyno. I was TOLD it had been on the dyno, but I personally cannot confirm that as being a fact.

Interestingly enough I found a post I made here back on 10/14/10 concerning those bell housing bolts:
Rich Z said:
The latest words from Aaron yesterday are that he thinks he has the oil leak from the valve cover licked. Pulled out the carbon fiber driveshaft and noted that there is 30 thousandths play in the input shaft that he doesn't like and believes the shaft itself is bent.

He also noted that the clutch disks are not making full contact on the pressure plates, but is not sure what is going on with that.

He also recommended that I have him remove the solid motor mounts and put stock ones back in, otherwise the vibration from the engine will make the car uncomfortable to drive.

The transmission and differential are pulled out and ready to be shipped to RPM Transmission in Indiana.

Oh yeah, he found bolts missing holding the bell housing in place.... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

**Emphasis added**

I'm curious how that came about, as I watched video I took myself of Chris Harwood installing those bell housing bolts, and afterwards actually helped in a minor capacity when Chris put the drivetrain back into the car, with those bolts in place. If, in fact, there were actually missing bolts on the bell housing way back then, and inbetween the clutch had been replaced, and then the engine pulled out from the car at a later date, then how come there are STILL missing bolts on the bell housing? Something just doesn't add up.
 
Greg from AntiVenom has given me some pointers, and he thinks I can do this without a lot of hassle. I've been looking it over, and I think if I loosen up the header (which remains removing the exhaust all the way back) on the driver's side, and take down the tunnel plate, I may be able to get one or more wobble extensions (as some have suggested to me) up there.

The issues that I can see will be trying to keep the bolt in a socket as I try to put it into the two empty holes, pretty much blindly. Maybe I can get Connie to man the flexible inspection camera. If I put enough light back there and back it off enough to give me a wider angle, maybe she can give directions while I man the socket extension. Probably will be tedious as hell.

It looks like if I take it to Shane, he may have to remove the turbo plumbing behind the differential in order to tilt the drivetrain down some. But if I can't get those bolts in, then I may have to just put it back together and take it up to him anyway. But I think I would like to give it a shot, first. The worse that could happen is that I wind up taking off the exhaust and tunnel plate, and have to put them back together again to drive it up to Champion Chevy if I fail. I'm still concerned about Shane tilting down that drivetrain with the intake manifold (particularly the old MAP sensor still in back) being so close to the firewall. Shane also mentioned that he has to be real careful with the brake lines, because if they get crimped they can be a headache to deal with.

Well, the tools I ordered should be here this upcoming week. So I'll just hang loose until then.

Oh, one interesting thing I noticed about my lift. With the wheels on the car, if I lift it up and down several times, taking the lift all the way back down to the floor, the car tends to "walk" towards the driver's side with each cycle. I've had to reposition the car twice now since the car was moving enough so that the frame guards I put on the car weren't lining up exactly right with the lift arm pads. Shortly the lift arm shaft on the front left was going to be hitting the underside of the fender body panel. Not exactly sure why that happens, but I'm glad I noticed it early enough to be aware of it before that body panel got damaged. I guess there must be a way to adjust the height of the lift arm pads to keep that from happening. :shrug01:
 
Rich, maybe you could put a piece of paper over the bolt head, then push the socket down
over that. That might hold the bolt in the socket until it's tight into the block. Also, a
small magnet inside the socket might do the same thing.....:shrug01:
Just a couple of thoughts.
Andy :wavey:
 
navy2kcoupe said:
Rich, maybe you could put a piece of paper over the bolt head, then push the socket down
over that. That might hold the bolt in the socket until it's tight into the block. Also, a
small magnet inside the socket might do the same thing.....:shrug01:
Just a couple of thoughts.
Andy :wavey:
Click to expand...

Yeah, the trick will be keeping the socket on the extension. Whatever holds the bolt in place can't have a stronger hold than what is holding the socket in place on the extension. Otherwise I then have a socket stuck up on the bell housing.

One of the 13mm sockets I am waiting for is a flexible type that I hope will be helpful with this task.

13mm_flex_socket_01.jpg


I might have to experiment a bit, perhaps even with a small piece of double sided tape, to see what works best holding the bolt in place. When I was working on the throttle body with the socket head bolts there, I was using the tip of a finger I cut off from my nitrile gloves over the allen head wrench. When I would jam that into the bolt, it stayed PUT so I didn't have to worry about the bolt dropping off. Maybe something similar to this will work with these 13mm bolts.

BTW, a guy over on CorvetteForum looked up the bolts for the bell housing for me and he says that they are M10x1.4x40. Is that 40mm measurement just the THREAD portion of the bolt, or the entire overall length? Hopefully I've got two of them that are the correct length for the bell housing.
 
The 40 MM is the full length of the bolt. Following my earlier information about the thread depth of the hole and the length of the bolt that means the bell housing tab is 15 MM thick and the hole is probably 30mm Deep so a 25 MM thread will not bottom out.
 
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