gmjunkie
Corvette,GM Classic Freak
Yeah,It's entirely too much!~!!!
I don't know exactly the spec's,But I do know thats Way,Way,excessive!~!!:thumbsup:
-
Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.
427 engine (part 2) - RHS block
- Thread starter Rich Z
- Start date
Yeah,It's entirely too much!~!!!
I don't know exactly the spec's,But I do know thats Way,Way,excessive!~!!:thumbsup:
navy2kcoupe
!ereH nI depparT m'I pleH
It's a GOOD thing! A good thing that you found it :thumbsup:! Looks more like a "wobbulator" than a turbo. I think it's a VERY good idea on your part to have taken them apart and checked them out yourself. I see a rebuild of both turbos here shortly. Good thing one or both of them didn't let go while you were winding up thru the gears.........! THAT would have been a scary sound...... Probably a lot more expensive as well!So, does the ":thumbsup:" indicate you think this is a GOOD thing?
Andy :wavey:
Yeah, I guess you are right, but I was hoping to get a break sometime with this stuff. I'm waiting to hear back from Turbos Direct about this, but I doubt anything will come of that conversation. Luckily rebuild kits aren't very expensive, which surprised me since most places charge around $350 each to do a rebuild. And that's getting it to them in a box and their not having to pull it out of a car. Maybe there's more to it than I could gather from the videos I watched.... :shrug01: Heck, I've watched the videos enough times lately that I could probably do one right now without even referring back to them for guidance.
Guess I need to order a couple of rebuilt kits anyway. I'm assuming this is what people refer to as a T3/T4 hybrid turbo. T3 turbine combined with a T4 compressor. Oh well, I'll be learning how to do something new, I suppose.
I'm actually toying with the idea of redoing ALL the threaded holes in the compressor housings just in case the others got overtightened, but not to the point where the threads let loose. Yet...
Guess I need to order a couple of rebuilt kits anyway. I'm assuming this is what people refer to as a T3/T4 hybrid turbo. T3 turbine combined with a T4 compressor. Oh well, I'll be learning how to do something new, I suppose.
I'm actually toying with the idea of redoing ALL the threaded holes in the compressor housings just in case the others got overtightened, but not to the point where the threads let loose. Yet...
gmjunkie
Corvette,GM Classic Freak
No!~!! It means that it has Way,Way too much clearance,And the thumb means "That is Gospel"! :thumbsup:So, does the ":thumbsup:" indicate you think this is a GOOD thing?
I've seen Power Stroke Diesel Ford trucks with 300,000 miles and not have the clearance that one has!
My guess is that either someone didn't know what they were doing,Or it's never been rebuilt!!
With no more miles than that one is supposed to have on it you should need a dial indicator to detect any excessive movement!
:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Last edited:
No!~!! It means that it has Way,Way too much clearance,And the thumb means "That is Gospel"! :thumbsup:
I've seen Power Stroke Diesel Ford trucks with 300,000 miles and not have the clearance that one has!
My guess is that either someone didn't know what they were doing,Or it's never been rebuilt!!
With no more miles than that one is supposed to have on it you should need a dial indicator to detect any excessive movement!
:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Well, I know there are different turbine housings on the turbos now than when I had the car towed to Aaron Scott's shop. But I guess you are right, that doesn't mean they were actually rebuilt with new bearings and seals. Just different housings could have been put on them. I would have to check back in this thread to see when Aaron Scott actually put those "rebuilt" turbos on my car, but I believe it was later on in the 14 months he had the car at his shop. He put a total of 400 miles on the car while he had it, and based on the tune, I seriously doubt he was able to push the engine much without getting REP failures. That wrong throttle body alone would likely have done that.
When I brought the car home the only times the engine was put into boost was a few times when Mike Carnahan was tuning it, and that one time I goosed it a little bit when I was trying to get used to the clutch and then heard that awful racket when I got off the gas and was engine braking to slow down. So those turbos really shouldn't have been stressed at all. I'm trying to think back how many miles I may have put on my car since November and I'm thinking it may be 800 or 900 miles. I think I just recently got the 500 break in miles on the new clutch, and I doubt I put more than 400 miles on it after getting the car back on the road before the drivetrain failure caused by the missing bellhousing bolts and the incorrect Pfadt driveshaft.
But that compressor housing seal being missing is a bad sign, I think, about SOMEONE's "quality" workmanship. The compressor housing mounting holes being stripped out is a bad sign concerning SOMEONE's just leaving their mistake and hoping I wouldn't have noticed it. Since that housing would have had to have been loosened to hook the turbo up to the STS plumbing, I think it's a pretty safe bet to assume that Aaron Scott stripped those bolt holes. As for the seal being missing, well, he shouldn't have had to have completely removed that housing, as far as I know, so that issue might have been from Turbos Direct. Quite honestly, based on what I later learned about Aaron Scott's attitude about me and my car, he may very well have directed Turbos Direct to just send me any old scrap, but passable, turbos they had laying around, and then charged me that $1,200 for them.
I'll be quite honest about it, from my own personal perspective based on my experiences with them and how they treated ME, I really can't see a hell of whole lot of difference between Chris Harwood and Aaron Scott. :nonod:
So, do I rebuild these turbos hoping the housings themselves are OK, or start scraping up the dough to buy new ones?
Damn.... I've been asking around about that shaft play and it's about an even split as to people saying it is OK or being too much.
Apparently journal bearing turbo shafts will have more play than bearing shafts. That's because when the engine is running, 30 to 50 psi of oil is being forced between the journal bearings and the shaft which takes up the play. That sounds logical to me.
But if that opinion is wrong, then what? Well, apparently the problem with shaft play is that the turbine vanes could strike the housings and therefore pretty much destroy the turbo. I would imagine something like that would make one hell of a racket, likely even before the total destruction of the turbo took place.
Turbos Direct did get back to me and offered to have me send the turbos back to them so they could take a look. I don't know what turnaround time would be, but I'm guessing close to three weeks all total from the day I send them out till the day I get them back. And they might very well just say that there is nothing wrong with them.
As for the compressor housing seal, someone told me that unless there is a groove in the housing for a seal, then it isn't needed. Honestly, I would think that any time you have two machined metal surfaces mating together that are supposed to hold water or air pressure, you would quite likely need some sort of seal in place. Not unless the tolerances are held VERY tightly during the machining. In this case, an air leak at the compressor housing means boost is being wasted which could increase spool up time.
So far I haven't found any place just selling the compressor housing seal alone. Only found kits that will provide it with all the other parts for a rebuild.
I may just very well buy a kit just for the seal, get the Helicoil thread repair kit, and just fix the threads, put the seal in that turbo housing, and call it a day. If there is excessive play in the shaft, and damage results eventually, then it's time to buy new turbos.
These thoughts are subject to change without notice, btw............
Apparently journal bearing turbo shafts will have more play than bearing shafts. That's because when the engine is running, 30 to 50 psi of oil is being forced between the journal bearings and the shaft which takes up the play. That sounds logical to me.
But if that opinion is wrong, then what? Well, apparently the problem with shaft play is that the turbine vanes could strike the housings and therefore pretty much destroy the turbo. I would imagine something like that would make one hell of a racket, likely even before the total destruction of the turbo took place.
Turbos Direct did get back to me and offered to have me send the turbos back to them so they could take a look. I don't know what turnaround time would be, but I'm guessing close to three weeks all total from the day I send them out till the day I get them back. And they might very well just say that there is nothing wrong with them.
As for the compressor housing seal, someone told me that unless there is a groove in the housing for a seal, then it isn't needed. Honestly, I would think that any time you have two machined metal surfaces mating together that are supposed to hold water or air pressure, you would quite likely need some sort of seal in place. Not unless the tolerances are held VERY tightly during the machining. In this case, an air leak at the compressor housing means boost is being wasted which could increase spool up time.
So far I haven't found any place just selling the compressor housing seal alone. Only found kits that will provide it with all the other parts for a rebuild.
I may just very well buy a kit just for the seal, get the Helicoil thread repair kit, and just fix the threads, put the seal in that turbo housing, and call it a day. If there is excessive play in the shaft, and damage results eventually, then it's time to buy new turbos.
These thoughts are subject to change without notice, btw............
Well, Turbos Direct is telling me that some turbos have seals in the compressor housing and some don't. Apparently mine don't. Another guy told me that the compressor housings that use seals will have a groove in them for the seal, which I don't see in that housing. He said he looked at the video and the wobble is not that bad. The important thing is that the shaft vanes don't hit the housings, which I don't see any evidence of.
Sooo, I think the best thing for me to do is to just get the Helicoil kit and fix those bolt holes that are stripped out. Slap it back together and hope for the best.
So we'll see..... :shrug01:
Sooo, I think the best thing for me to do is to just get the Helicoil kit and fix those bolt holes that are stripped out. Slap it back together and hope for the best.
So we'll see..... :shrug01:
ironhorse
Road Warrior
Hi Rich, I agree with your assessment. After viewing the wobble present on your turbos, and doing some research on turbos, it's apparent some wobble is present in all...As long as the impellas do not touch the inner housing... If it was my car, I would fix the stripped out bolt holes with heli coyles and go from there...My humble opinion...
Yeah, that's my game plan. I'm hoping for the best. Thanks for taking the time to look into this for me.
BTW, Turbos Direct found the info on my turbos, and here's the specs on them:
Just putting this here in case I lose this info sometime down the road.
ironhorse
Road Warrior
Good point...:yesnod:
There really isn't any in/out play that I can detect at all.
Heck this is the first time I have ever taken a housing off of a turbo, so this is all pretty much Greek to me. If I had to order a replacement turbo to match what I already have, I wouldn't have a clue about what to even ask for. :shrug01:
BTW, I did watch some videos of some ball bearing turbos, and they seemed quite impressive with the relative ease that the shaft will turn and obvious reduction in friction. Wish they weren't so darn expensive compared to the journal bearing type. That and it seems that most that I looked at need a water cooling line run to them as well as the oil lines. I can't see running coolant lines all the way back to the those turbos. Got enough stuff running all over the place under that car as it is.
Benjamin
New member
yes, they have some STUPID quick spool up times, diesel guys love them cause they can put a larger turbo on and have it spool up as quick or quicker than stock.....
Got the Helicoil treat repair kit in yesterday, and picked up stainless bolts to replace the steel ones in the turbo compressor housing. Anyway, I just had this nagging itch about this in my mind, thinking WHY did those bolt holes get stripped out? I asked the guy at Turbos Direct what the torque specs are on those bolts, and he said they merely have to be snugged down with a lock washer to keep them from vibrating loose. Well, those bolts were a LOT more than snugged down, so why was that the case.
So I looked CLOSELY at that housing. With my reading glasses, of course, as the old eyeballs just aren't what they used to be without assistance.
And yeah, I found a casting flaw in that housing. A bit of a bump right where once of the stripped threaded holes is located. This bump would not allow the housing to fit flush onto the turbo mount. And besides this bump, there is a ridge that I can easily feel with my finger nail a few inches around this bump. Without a doubt that would keep that housing from mating up flush. Probably leaking not only oil, but air pressure as well.
So I sent these pics off to Turbos Direct to see what they recommend. I'm willing to tackle it with a Dremel and use a sealant between the surfaces, but I want to check with them first about this. I am also going to use a thread sealant on the mounting bolts because those bolts go clear into the air chamber of the compressor housing, and without sealant they will likely leak air pressure around them.
Am I trying to be too much of a perfectionist about this crap? :shrug01:
So I looked CLOSELY at that housing. With my reading glasses, of course, as the old eyeballs just aren't what they used to be without assistance.
And yeah, I found a casting flaw in that housing. A bit of a bump right where once of the stripped threaded holes is located. This bump would not allow the housing to fit flush onto the turbo mount. And besides this bump, there is a ridge that I can easily feel with my finger nail a few inches around this bump. Without a doubt that would keep that housing from mating up flush. Probably leaking not only oil, but air pressure as well.
So I sent these pics off to Turbos Direct to see what they recommend. I'm willing to tackle it with a Dremel and use a sealant between the surfaces, but I want to check with them first about this. I am also going to use a thread sealant on the mounting bolts because those bolts go clear into the air chamber of the compressor housing, and without sealant they will likely leak air pressure around them.
Am I trying to be too much of a perfectionist about this crap? :shrug01:
Well, the answer I got back Turbos Direct was to preferably put the housing on a lathe to cut out that ridge. But he (Mike) said I could use a Dremel and seal it with a light coat of silicon sealant. Since I don't have a lathe big enough to handle that housing (just a little tiny table lathe) and can't think of anyone else that has one I could take this to, that pretty much limited my options.
I figured, what the hell, and went over to the work room and set up the Dremel with a flat disc cutting wheel. Pretended like I was doing brain surgery, and was able to grind out that ridge and lump to where it is perfectly smooth to the fingernail test. I only took out as little metal as possible using little tiny baby steps. So I think this will be fine now.
So I grabbed up the HeliCoil kit and started with that. Luckily I had a 21/64ths drill bit, which is needed for this particular kit. Used the drill press to get some good perpendicular holes drilled, then put the housing into the vise and used the special tap they provided to tap the threads in the two holes. Afterwards I cleaned out all of the cutting oil I used for the drilling and tapping, and now I'm going to let it dry thoroughly in case I decide to use some Permatex thread locker on that coil that gets inserted into that threaded hole. I'm thinking something may be needed to keep that coil from backing out along with the bolt when it is removed. But in all the reviews I have read about HeliCoil, I don't remember reading of anyone using a thread locking fluid with them. So I need to investigate this a bit tonight.
I also noticed that three of the six mounting bolts actually protrude directly into the air chamber in that compressor housing, so I'm going to put a thread sealant on the bolt threads to prevent any air leakage around the bolts.
With any luck I'll have the turbo back together and the plumbing hooked back up tomorrow.
I figured, what the hell, and went over to the work room and set up the Dremel with a flat disc cutting wheel. Pretended like I was doing brain surgery, and was able to grind out that ridge and lump to where it is perfectly smooth to the fingernail test. I only took out as little metal as possible using little tiny baby steps. So I think this will be fine now.
So I grabbed up the HeliCoil kit and started with that. Luckily I had a 21/64ths drill bit, which is needed for this particular kit. Used the drill press to get some good perpendicular holes drilled, then put the housing into the vise and used the special tap they provided to tap the threads in the two holes. Afterwards I cleaned out all of the cutting oil I used for the drilling and tapping, and now I'm going to let it dry thoroughly in case I decide to use some Permatex thread locker on that coil that gets inserted into that threaded hole. I'm thinking something may be needed to keep that coil from backing out along with the bolt when it is removed. But in all the reviews I have read about HeliCoil, I don't remember reading of anyone using a thread locking fluid with them. So I need to investigate this a bit tonight.
I also noticed that three of the six mounting bolts actually protrude directly into the air chamber in that compressor housing, so I'm going to put a thread sealant on the bolt threads to prevent any air leakage around the bolts.
With any luck I'll have the turbo back together and the plumbing hooked back up tomorrow.
Yesterday I finished up putting the Helicoil thread inserts into those two stripped bolt holes. It was actually pretty easy to do.
I didn't put any thread locking fluid on neither the Helicoils nor the bolts when I put the compressor housing back onto the turbo, but I did use a thread sealant on the bolts as well as some red RTV silicon sealant on the sealing faces of the turbo and compressor housing flanges. Everything went together pretty easily, but I did notice some issues with some mounting brackets on the STS pipes that I will need to deal with. Someone bent them away from the mounting bolts on the frame and now there is some metal to metal contact that will make a rattling noise when I drive the car. And sure enough, when I took the car out today for a test drive, I can plainly hear that passenger side piping rattling when at a stop light.
I'll take some pics later on of those mounting brackets for reference.
But in any event, after the test drive, I didn't see any oil leaking from the turbo. And I did run the car up to where it went into boost, so it appears to be holding air pressure as well. But there are still some minor things I need to fix, apparently. There is a slight misalignment with the output pipe to the STS plumbing, that I might need a slightly longer coupler hose for. And the brackets I mentioned earlier to stop the pipes from banging against each other.
But all in all, the car ran pretty good on the test drive. I think I've got the 500 break-in miles on the clutch now. :thumbsup:
I didn't put any thread locking fluid on neither the Helicoils nor the bolts when I put the compressor housing back onto the turbo, but I did use a thread sealant on the bolts as well as some red RTV silicon sealant on the sealing faces of the turbo and compressor housing flanges. Everything went together pretty easily, but I did notice some issues with some mounting brackets on the STS pipes that I will need to deal with. Someone bent them away from the mounting bolts on the frame and now there is some metal to metal contact that will make a rattling noise when I drive the car. And sure enough, when I took the car out today for a test drive, I can plainly hear that passenger side piping rattling when at a stop light.
I'll take some pics later on of those mounting brackets for reference.
But in any event, after the test drive, I didn't see any oil leaking from the turbo. And I did run the car up to where it went into boost, so it appears to be holding air pressure as well. But there are still some minor things I need to fix, apparently. There is a slight misalignment with the output pipe to the STS plumbing, that I might need a slightly longer coupler hose for. And the brackets I mentioned earlier to stop the pipes from banging against each other.
But all in all, the car ran pretty good on the test drive. I think I've got the 500 break-in miles on the clutch now. :thumbsup:
Here's some pics of the passenger side turbo after having the compressor housing put back in place.
And the following are pics of the STS plumbing mounting brackets that got all bent up by one of the two fellas who messed with this turbo stuff while my car was in their respective shop.
Lord only knows what they did to this coupler clamp.
And looks like no one was paying attention to the coupler that was laying against the aluminum panel nearby, and got a nice little slice mark across it.
Fortunately this coupler is on the unpressurized side of the compressor housing, but I'll still have to fix it.
And then we have a number of missing nuts on some bolts, not counting the ones needed for those bent up brackets that weren't attached where they are supposed to be located.
I don't think I am EVER going to stop finding missing nuts, bolts, and parts on this car after what those guys put this car through. :nonod:
And the following are pics of the STS plumbing mounting brackets that got all bent up by one of the two fellas who messed with this turbo stuff while my car was in their respective shop.
Lord only knows what they did to this coupler clamp.
And looks like no one was paying attention to the coupler that was laying against the aluminum panel nearby, and got a nice little slice mark across it.
Fortunately this coupler is on the unpressurized side of the compressor housing, but I'll still have to fix it.
And then we have a number of missing nuts on some bolts, not counting the ones needed for those bent up brackets that weren't attached where they are supposed to be located.
I don't think I am EVER going to stop finding missing nuts, bolts, and parts on this car after what those guys put this car through. :nonod:
I'm still getting an odd noise from the drivetrain when I move from a dead stop both forward and in reverse. But only really seems to happen when I first pull out from the garage and onto my driveway. Once the car has been running, I don't seem to get the noise any longer. Maybe the clutch is groaning when it is cold? :shrug01:
Beats me. I guess I'll just have to see if anything breaks, or the noise gets worse over time....
Beats me. I guess I'll just have to see if anything breaks, or the noise gets worse over time....
Here's a video I took while checking out to make sure the car would go into boost....
I wanted to make sure there weren't any gross air leaks from that turbo I just worked on.
I was surprised at how quickly the engine went into boost without really putting my foot into the accelerator. I only just glanced at the boost gauge so I don't know how much boost it actually produced, but I know it got to the 5 psi line REAL quickly. So I put my eyes back on the road. Now that the clutch should be broken in, I guess I can take a closer look at that.
I wanted to make sure there weren't any gross air leaks from that turbo I just worked on.
I was surprised at how quickly the engine went into boost without really putting my foot into the accelerator. I only just glanced at the boost gauge so I don't know how much boost it actually produced, but I know it got to the 5 psi line REAL quickly. So I put my eyes back on the road. Now that the clutch should be broken in, I guess I can take a closer look at that.