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Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.
C5 427 forged motor?
- Thread starter Rich Z
- Start date
Dave, I see you're a mechanical engineer. Me too. You can't be serious. Those heads are JUNK! :shrug01:
gsdave
engineer
I respectfully disagree with you, and for obvious reason's.
Spice
You're welcome to disagree. I speak from my experience dealing with aftermarket vendors and parts. If Rich showed World Products the crack and they said "go suck an egg" I'd agree with you. In reality, they repaired the heads the first time on a rush and have now agreed to replace them. However Rich posts on several forums posting photos and questioning everything about the heads. Most people responding and jumping on the bandwagon have never even seen a bare aftermarket (or factory) casting, but they're all experts on what will or will not work and what is or is not acceptable.
Will LME agree to remachine the heads since they did not catch either of these problems? Will they agree to reimburse the shipping back and forth? How about Chris' time? How about the fact that Rich has been without his car for months? Is that ALL World Products' fault? I don't think so.
Plenty of people use World Products and everything goes smoothly the first time. Yes, it sucks to have this problem with this one set of heads, but **** happens and its how people deal with the problems that shows character. If there was a problem with one of my projects and someone jumped on the internet and bashed my company without giving me a chance to fix the problem (or even AFTER I fixed the problem), I'd be beyond pissed off and you'd probably get a similar response from me.
gsdave
engineer
Where did I say they weren't? They obviously need to be replaced and World Products agreed to. The repair done the first time was fine. If that was the only problem with the heads, the car would be out kicking ass right now.
What I don't agree with is that World Products has done anything wrong other than have a lapse in QC. I can guarantee you that LME was the one pushing for Rich to have the heads repaired because THEY didn't want to remachine another set of heads. It probably would have cost World Products less to just go ahead and send a new set of castings out.
I'll lay that on Rich. He never should have agreed to the repair but I understand why he did.
The lapse in Quality Control is what I was talking about. These heads should never have been shipped and I think it speaks volumes about this company. My opinion vs yours and it's all good. :thumbsup:
gsdave
engineer
I agree they never should have been shipped. However, you cannot expect perfection from a company that employs human beings. The fact that they have agreed to replace the heads without hesitation speaks volumes to me. If you expect perfection from anything mass produced, then you're going to live a long disappointed life.
"you went and once again picked apart the repair, took
> high resolution photos that gave you a view like it was under a
> microscope and magnified the corrected holes did not in anyway look this
> way to the human eye and was a very acceptable repair.
He says it was an acceptable repair. I disagree. That alone would keep me away from them. His words!
gsdave
engineer
Rich did not want to slot the holes in the intake manifold as he felt that was unacceptable. That would have been my first choice. Another shop owner replied earlier in this thread saying he felt the repair was fine. I agree that the repair was fine. Rich even got a guarantee out of it and it appears that World Products stands up to their promises.
I surrender Dave. LOL. :thumbsup:
gsdave
engineer
Me too! I have a tendency to try to clarify my point of view too much. Not trying to argue. :thumbsup:
spiceman
New member
Thanks Dave, and Bob K as well
I believe my 23 years with GM Chevrolet engineering as especially Corvette, qualifies my opinion's herein.
My reasoning quite simple, and already expressed by both you Dave and Bob K.
Rich could have this or that. Chris could have......but didn't. The buck being passed faster than a speeding bullett, while World is saying...........Rich could have but didn't.
Bottom line, as far as I see it, Another set of heads should have been sent out immediately.
This wasn't some dead beat back door garage performing the work for Rich, and it wasn't some back door off the shelf re-manufacture of the heads either. Those old heads needed to be returned to World QC so as to find what the heck happened and to alert and re-QC the batch those heads came from in order to ALERT any post problems.
Should Rich (a novest when it comes to Hi performance head machining) have known an possible QC problem @ World ? Maybe a history of such a problem excisting with World's casting's? I think not. Rich simply wanted his Corvette Z and his DREAM for which he's paying his hard earned money to make that dream come true.
Forget blame here, get the problems corrected ASAP, and usually all is forgiven. Drag your feet and in a flash, Helter Skelter will break lose.
Now this is my personal opinion.
I believe my 23 years with GM Chevrolet engineering as especially Corvette, qualifies my opinion's herein.
My reasoning quite simple, and already expressed by both you Dave and Bob K.
Rich could have this or that. Chris could have......but didn't. The buck being passed faster than a speeding bullett, while World is saying...........Rich could have but didn't.
Bottom line, as far as I see it, Another set of heads should have been sent out immediately.
This wasn't some dead beat back door garage performing the work for Rich, and it wasn't some back door off the shelf re-manufacture of the heads either. Those old heads needed to be returned to World QC so as to find what the heck happened and to alert and re-QC the batch those heads came from in order to ALERT any post problems.
Should Rich (a novest when it comes to Hi performance head machining) have known an possible QC problem @ World ? Maybe a history of such a problem excisting with World's casting's? I think not. Rich simply wanted his Corvette Z and his DREAM for which he's paying his hard earned money to make that dream come true.
Forget blame here, get the problems corrected ASAP, and usually all is forgiven. Drag your feet and in a flash, Helter Skelter will break lose.
Now this is my personal opinion.
Yeah, right......
There have now been TWO rather significant problems found, not even counting the fact that every accessory bracket has had to be significantly modified to fit on this engine. Sorry, I didn't need to get that third strike to realize that there were quite likely other non-visible and/or yet to be discovered problems with these World Products items.
Sorry, but I was NOT consulted about the options when World Products got those heads and inspected them. Pretty much, as you can see in the above email, I was told "this is what we have done". So it was either take it or leave it. Personally, my opinion is that LME quite likely told World Products that WP would have to pay for remachining those new heads and they balked at that. Just as now, WP offered to sent me new heads if I PAID for shipping the bad ones back to them, and quite likely would not pay to have the work LME would have to do on those new ones. I am pretty damned positive that since the fault was with the heads that WP sent to LME, WP would have had to eat the cost on that remachining new heads. The original problems was NOT LME's so why should they have to eat that expense? Quite frankly, I believe you are barking up the wrong tree with your opinion.
If you believe that such issues are completely acceptable, then more power to you. I guess I just desire to have a higher standard for items I purchase.
I decided that I just will NOT advertise World Products in my car every time I pop the hood at car shows or to show interested parties. I completely lost faith in anything resembling quality control concerning their products.
spiceman
New member
gsdave
engineer
I really feel bad for you, Rich. I don't think I've ever seen you post that you're happy about anything. You have all these people trying to help you get what you paid for and you're just not happy about any of it.
I never said the defects were acceptable. I said the repair was acceptable. I said the fact that WP is going to replace the heads is acceptable.
I think the fact that people that actually race and abuse their cars and use the HP they will make will do far more advertising for World Products than popping your hood at the car show. Lots of happy customers out there doing that and making far more HP than your TT 427 will. But again, you're welcome to carry a grudge and just be an unhappy camper about the whole thing because that's your right.
I wish you the best with your build and hope that it turns into something that will make you smile.
I never said the defects were acceptable. I said the repair was acceptable. I said the fact that WP is going to replace the heads is acceptable.
I think the fact that people that actually race and abuse their cars and use the HP they will make will do far more advertising for World Products than popping your hood at the car show. Lots of happy customers out there doing that and making far more HP than your TT 427 will. But again, you're welcome to carry a grudge and just be an unhappy camper about the whole thing because that's your right.
I wish you the best with your build and hope that it turns into something that will make you smile.
spiceman
New member
Little story here for you Bob
Thought I'd share and knew you'd enjoy.
1991 while testing at Road Atlanta with the Chevy Intrepid of KaTec and Pratt Miller.
Doug Fehan of Chevrolet, and TK Tommy Kendall just returning from his serious accident at Watkins Glen the year before, Bob Fritz of KaTec engine developement specialist, Danny Binks and my self on suspension R&D.
TK driving like a bat of Hell as always.
The new RKR 385 w/ some 850 HP and after 5 laps the crank balancer snapped off at turn 6 at the top of the hill.
TK called Bob Riley on the head set and said.........I think I can coast to the bottom and into the pit's, Tell Fritzzy I broke the toy, but most of all keep him away from the remaining Oreo Cookie's left over he and I were sharring !
That was a 60K dollar X engine of KaTec. Somebody screwed up. And it happens all the time in Hi Performance no matter who you are, or who the builders are. **** happens.:thumbsup:
Thought I'd share and knew you'd enjoy.
1991 while testing at Road Atlanta with the Chevy Intrepid of KaTec and Pratt Miller.
Doug Fehan of Chevrolet, and TK Tommy Kendall just returning from his serious accident at Watkins Glen the year before, Bob Fritz of KaTec engine developement specialist, Danny Binks and my self on suspension R&D.
TK driving like a bat of Hell as always.
The new RKR 385 w/ some 850 HP and after 5 laps the crank balancer snapped off at turn 6 at the top of the hill.
TK called Bob Riley on the head set and said.........I think I can coast to the bottom and into the pit's, Tell Fritzzy I broke the toy, but most of all keep him away from the remaining Oreo Cookie's left over he and I were sharring !
That was a 60K dollar X engine of KaTec. Somebody screwed up. And it happens all the time in Hi Performance no matter who you are, or who the builders are. **** happens.:thumbsup:
You got any Oreos for Rich?You paid for a new set of heads and expected them in a timely manner. If they're now telling you to take their offer or forget it I would go down to small claims and file suit. Won't cost you much and if you lose they still have to send new heads.
I'm sure if it were YOUR money on the line, you would be perfectly happy with the events that have transpired and all peachy keen feeling about WP as well. I'm sure you would have found that crack I found to be perfectly acceptable as well? And you wouldn't be getting a queasy feeling about that fact coupled with the earlier error in machining those bolt holes being indications that perhaps YOUR money wasn't getting you quite the quality you had been expecting? After all, other people have been happy with WP products, so perhaps you should just turn a blind eye to the faults found and admit the problem MUST be you instead. Yeah, THAT's the ticket! Damn me all to HELL for finding those faults and not willing to live with them or the half assed attempts to fix them! And note that word "fix". These are BRAND NEW, supposedly top of the line, heads I bought. Not some bargain basement el cheapo, "give me the cheapest ones I can get that will be passably acceptable" heads. That fact means nothing to you, obviously. No, you would find FIXING those brand new heads perfectly acceptable, now wouldn't you?
Did you read between the lines whereby I would have to eat the expense for shipping those heads back to WP AND having the machine work that LME needs to do on my dime as well? THAT would be acceptable to you?
I guess low expectations tend to make the world easier to bear when they are realized, eh? :thumbsup: Sorry, but I'm not that way. I expect people to give me what I pay for. If they are unable to comply, then state so at the beginning and go service other customers who have lower expectations. Don't take my money proclaiming superior products and services and expect me to ACCEPT less.
For those of you who apparently missed one of my posts, LME has agreed to refund the price of the engine completely. And I can choose to have them build me another engine using components from a different block and head manufacturer. Right now I am waiting on prices and a ETA for when I can expect to get a new engine, if this is the path I take, so I can decide whether or not I want to just have Chris put the LS6 back into my car.
spiceman
New member
well Rich
Whats that old saying Rich? Fool me once, Fool me twice...RIGHT!
So my friend, what is your flavor now? Put all the BS aside, and getting down and dirty.....what's your resolve now? You want ole Johns help or do ya have a handle on it for where your headed? You know Rich.......there's a ton of people I know in every aspect of Corvette both new and old that I can get for you who are Pro's at this and have the credentials to back them up.
Yours for the asking my friend.
Gotta sign off and head back to Daytona. Will report Tommorow Guyz.:yesnod:
Whats that old saying Rich? Fool me once, Fool me twice...RIGHT!
So my friend, what is your flavor now? Put all the BS aside, and getting down and dirty.....what's your resolve now? You want ole Johns help or do ya have a handle on it for where your headed? You know Rich.......there's a ton of people I know in every aspect of Corvette both new and old that I can get for you who are Pro's at this and have the credentials to back them up.
Yours for the asking my friend.
Gotta sign off and head back to Daytona. Will report Tommorow Guyz.:yesnod:
I didn't miss it. I didn't know they were willing to eat the cost of the heads also. I was looking at the date of the email and thought WP was throwing a wrench into your new plans.
LME must be a real stand up company to do that. I need to look them up on the net. It will work out Rich, just hang in there.