• Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.

C5 427 forged motor?

Man, I'm now hooked on this thread. It's like a freakin' train wreck. Good luck and I hope everyone rectifies the situation properly for you. I can't even imagine how livid you must be right now.
 
shakedown067 said:
Man, I'm now hooked on this thread. It's like a freakin' train wreck. Good luck and I hope everyone rectifies the situation properly for you. I can't even imagine how livid you must be right now.
Click to expand...

Yeah.... But this is nothing compared to how I will feel if this isn't resolved quickly and satisfactorily. And yeah, this entire experience is tainted for me now. I've got a gut feeling that these are all bad omens trying to tell me something.

Well, I'm going to run out to the shop today, but my heart isn't in this any longer... Maybe some good news for a change would help, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
 
Getting anxiety from car issues is the worst. At least its not your daily. That is the thing that sucks most about mine.
 
Finally making some progress. Apparently the measurements taken by LME proved conclusively that the heads were machined incorrectly at World Products. So those defective heads are being shipping back to World Products to be replaced by new ones.

Now all I have to be concerned about (at this moment) is the fact that shipping anything this time of year is not the best time to be doing that sort of thing.

All things considered (holidays in particular), I'm not expecting to see that engine back at XtremeMotorsports until well after the first of the year.

At least World Products manned up to the problem and didn't try to slough it off as a "well within acceptable tolerances" dodge. Chris and I discussed our alternatives today before I got this news, figuring on what our next step would be in the worst case. But fortunately we won't have to go there, it appears.
 
A little G:):)D NEWS in this tunnel of darkness.
Maybe this time it'll all slide together like it's supposed to.
I've got my fingers crossed Rich.................
Andy :wavey:
 
Mark Dalton said:
Man! This has got to be like the male version of giving birth for you Rich. Breath, breath, don't push.:D
Click to expand...

Maybe with increasing age I'm getting more mellow. A few years back I would have popped at least three blood vessels in my brain. Of course, had World Products flubbed the right way to handle this, that may have happened after all.

But the fat lady hasn't sung yet, folks.....

Heck, just had this thought.... I certainly do hope that the warranty period on all this stuff starts when it is installed and the car hits the road, and not when the parts were received. :nonod:
 
Carbon fiber driveshaft....Hope I posted the right pics..
 

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Thats wierd, there was a good pic showing my car with some stuff on it and now its gone?

Interesting location for my car too.
 
Darn, I missed that part of the install. Not sure if that is when I was sick or when the garage was being put up.... :nonod:
 
Lou G said:
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering WTF happened?
:shrug01:
Click to expand...

Yeah... I quit believing years ago that the old codger in the mirror looking back at me is REALLY me..... :nonod:
 
Rich Z said:
Yeah... I quit believing years ago that the old codger in the mirror looking back at me is REALLY me..... :nonod:
Click to expand...

That happens to you TOO?

oldman.jpg
 
Well, I got word that those heads have landed at World Products and they are running them through quality control to see what went wrong. Hopefully that won't take long and those new heads will be on the way to LME pretty shortly.

The sooner the better......... I'm going to forget how to drive a stick shift.... :nonod:
 
OK, I'm beginning to lose my cool now. I'll post some emails here between Billy Mitchell Jr. of World Products and myself today so either you all can see what I am getting pissed about, or else just tell me I'm being unreasonable....


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>
To: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>
Cc: "sales" <sales@latemodelengines.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 8:46 AM
Subject: LS Heads


> Rich,
> Ok, Some progress here. Took longer then what I was expecting but
> all and all I guess this is all the better. After indicating the heads
> on a block in our cnc as the guys at LME did we came up with I believe
> the same number or at least pretty close. Our numbers show that the
> heads for your build were off by .125" total width side to side. This
> means .0625 per head. Now I went through every head I have here and
> found that they are all off by approx. .030-.035" per head. The
> difference here is from your heads being milled, which had to be and no
> way around it, after all this is what achieves the exact compression
> desired. This is why in all engine bulds there is always some sort of
> modification needed due to other modifications. In this case here yes
> the original hole was off from GM spec but even if it were dead on, the
> fact that a mill was needed on the head deck it changes the location of
> the intake holes. So what we decided to do here since all of our heads
> have the holes off from where your build would need them after milling
> and to salvage all of the extensive labor that LME has put into these
> heads, we installed aluminum bolts with loctite to seal up the existing
> hole and remachined the new holes in the exact location needed for your
> build. I also noticed in the pictures sent from the shop installing the
> manifold in the first place that the manifold was not seated onto the
> heads but hung up on the lower portion of the valve cover rail so I
> Machined this as well for proper fit. The heads will be finished here in
> approx. two hours and am doing what I can to get UPS or Fed ex here to
> pick them up. They are on a delivery only schedule today and we are
> closed next week but if need be I will come in next week for UPS to pick
> up. I know you had some original concerns about any modifications but in
> this case we really just had no choice and really are not talking about
> anything out of the ordinary. Personally I would have elongated the
> holes in the manifold as we do on a lot of engines but I know you did
> not want to do that. I went this route instead of the inserts because I
> just felt that it was a stronger and more integral and permanent fix.
> You will have no problem with this and don't have to worry about this at
> all. It will live forever. When we are done with the fix I can send you
> a photo for you to see and more then likely will not even be able to see
> the actual fix when we are done.
> Happy Holidays and thanks for your patience,
> Billy
Click to expand...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>
To: "Chris Harwood" <chris.harwood@motorsportsxtreme.com>
Cc: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>; "Bryan Neelen" <sales@latemodelengines.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 9:19 AM
Subject: Fw: LS Heads


> Chris,
>
> What do you think of this? Would this be acceptable to you if this were
> YOUR engine that you just spent $16K on? My concern would be the matching
> of the intake ports on the heads to the intake manifold. Can you send my
> intake manifold to LME so they can make certain this will not be an issue?
> Porting needed? I have to admit I'm not real comfortable with getting
> "fixed" heads, but I would imagine there is the issue of re-machining new
> heads that someone will have to eat the expense for. But I don't want it to
> be ME that is drawing the short straw with this deal, though no fault of my
> own. So to be acceptable I want some concessions made, please. (1) I want
> the intake manifold ports and intake ports of the heads matched and ported
> so there is no restriction from misalignment whatsoever. And (2) I want
> that "fix" of the heads, with the understanding that it has been known
> upfront that this will be a turbo forced induction engine, to be warranted
> for life. Not anything else but the fact that if that "fix" fails, that I
> will be covered without that expense coming out of my own pocket. I'm not
> talking about everything on the heads being covered, just those bolt holes
> holding the intake manifold in place that are being adapted to fix this
> misalignment problem.
>
> Also, to whoever can answer this one, a question about the milling of the
> heads for compression ratio modification. I understand that the compression
> on my engine will be 9.5:1, which is low compared to a typical high
> performance engine of this nature. What is the compression ratio of the
> heads, as is, when placed on an engine such as mine without milling to
> increase the compression?
>
> Merry Christmas, everyone!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich Z.
>
Click to expand...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>
To: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>
Cc: "Chris Harwood" <chris.harwood@motorsportsxtreme.com>; "Bryan Neelen" <sales@latemodelengines.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: LS Heads


> Rich,
> I have no doubt in my mind that this repair will not be a factor in the
> future. As far as your question on compression. There are many ways to
> skin a cat when building an engine. The combination of bore size,
> chamber size and dome size as well as piston to head quench. So there
> really is no right or wrong here it can be accomplished by changing any
> one of these factors and made up some where else. The truth of the
> matter you can really only estimate in the planning stage of an engine
> and when the parts from many different manufacturers arrive, it is then
> when the true calculations can be figured and at that point the engine
> builder formulates a plan to what he thinks should be done to achieve
> his combination and end result. Every engine builder has their own
> methods and opinions. Of course opinions are just that and when shopping
> for engines or car builders and even part manufactures, you are making
> your ultimate choice on their reputation and as long as their reputation
> is good then I would trust their opinion. I think you have made some
> good choices here and I think you will be very happy in the end result.
> Any way UPS has turned us down for today and we are checking if we can
> drive these heads over to Fed Ex today.
> Happy Holidays,
> Billy
Click to expand...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>
To: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>
Cc: "Bryan Neelen" <sales@latemodelengines.com>; "Chris Harwood" <chris.harwood@motorsportsxtreme.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: LS Heads


> Thanks Billy,
>
> "I have no doubt in my mind that this repair will not be a factor in the
> future."
>
> So you are willing to stand behind that, in response to my stated
> stipulations for making that repair to the heads?
>
> Have a nice Christmas. I hope you can get those heads out today so this
> won't carry over to next week.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rich Z.
>
Click to expand...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>
To: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: LS Heads


> Rich,
> Never made it out. We were ready by noon but Fedex or Ups were not
> accepting. A few of us will be in Tuesday and will get out then. Sorry.
> I'd do it Monday but will not be in town.
> Billy
>
Click to expand...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>
To: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>
Cc: "Chris Harwood" <chris.harwood@motorsportsxtreme.com>; "Bryan Neelen" <sales@latemodelengines.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: LS Heads


> Billy,
>
> Unless my stipulations are met, then I am not willing to accept "fixed"
> heads.
>
> To reiterate, they are:
>
>
>>>>>(1) I want the intake manifold ports and intake ports of the heads
>>>>>matched and ported so there is no restriction from misalignment
>>>>>whatsoever. And (2) I want that "fix" of the heads, with the
>>>>>understanding that it has been known upfront that this will be a turbo
>>>>>forced induction engine, to be warranted for life. Not anything else
>>>>>but the fact that if that "fix" fails, that I will be covered without
>>>>>that expense coming out of my own pocket. I'm not talking about
>>>>>everything on the heads being covered, just those bolt holes holding the
>>>>>intake manifold in place that are being adapted to fix this misalignment
>>>>>problem.
>
> I talked to Chris today and he said the only milling done to those heads was
> to square them up, and they were not extensively cut to adjust for
> compression. Again, please note that this is a low compression engine, so
> milling the heads to raise the compression, especially since those pistons
> are a reverse dome style to get the compression to 9.5:1, wouldn't have been
> necessary. Also, if those heads had been milled enough to affect the
> alignment of the intake manifold mounting bolts, then quite likely the
> matching of the head intake ports to the intake manifold would be equally
> affected. Hence stipulation #2 above.
>
> Perhaps it is very fortunate that those heads could not be shipped out
> today, as it appears that you purposely avoided answering my questions about
> those stipulations I mentioned in my previous emails. Perhaps an oversight
> on your part, but now you have time to answer them.
>
> I'm starting to feel that some dodging is taking place now. I don't really
> know all that much about engine building, but I can tell when someone is
> beginning to go into CYA mode and wanting me to be the fall guy as a result.
> If those heads were extensively machined as you state to throw those intake
> manifold bolts so far out of alignment, then what in God's name would happen
> if someone wanted to build a 12:1 compression engine using them? How far
> would THAT put those intake manifold bolts out of alignement? Sorry, but it
> just doesn't make sense to me that LME would have machined all that metal
> off of the mating surfaces of the heads to the block for a 9.5:1 compression
> engine.
>
> In effect, you are saying this is LME's fault for shaving too much metal off
> of those heads? That IS what you are claiming, you know. So tell me,
> exactly how much metal was taken off in relation to a stock LS7X head that
> you typically send out? Certainly both you and LME took those measurements.
>
> So I am requesting you to NOT send those heads until these stipulations
> listed here have been agreed to by all parties involved. I don't want an
> engine that is flawed from the beginning with mismatched intake ports or any
> other problems that the intake manifold bolt alignment issue may prove later
> on to just be the tip of the iceberg.
>
> If those stipulations are not agreed to and you ship out those heads anyway,
> then I am requesting that LME REFUSE delivery of those heads when they show
> up there and begin processing a FULL refund for the money Chris paid for
> that World Products engine in my behalf. I've waited this damn long because
> of this screw up, so I can certainly wait for an engine to be built using
> another block and heads from another supplier. So in essence, if this can't
> be done right for me, no, I'm NOT spending $16K for something jury rigged
> and patched because of a flaw that World Products isn't willing to own up
> to. And I'll be perfectly honest, I really resent this entire crappy
> situation taking place for something I had been so looking forward to.
>
> Yeah, that's right, I'm getting PISSED about this now...
>
> And in case you missed it above:
>
> DO NOT SEND OUT THOSE HEADS UNTIL MY STIPULATIONS HAVE BEEN AGREED TO! THEY
> ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE WITHOUT THOSE STIPULATIONS BEING MET!
>
> Rich Z.
Click to expand...
 
Sounds like you will be paying for a "bubba fix" on the heads instead of paying for new "correct" heads in the first place. Hell, these people are in the "HEAD" business as a profession, and "should" know that this would happen if the heads were milled. I can understand that there might be a little misalignment, but that's where the gasket comes into play. Your problem was a little more serious than just "slight misalignment". My thought would be that since you paid for new heads, get new heads........not some new heads that have been boogered up. The fix that they are proposing may work well and last the life of the heads with no problems, but I'm not familiar with head geometry, aluminum metal specifications, pro engine building or any of the other stuff that goes into a part like this, so I really can't intelligently comment on whether it will do it's job correctly until you decide to replace the heads. My gut, on the other hand, is telling me that you might be better off finding another vendor for the heads. This doesn't sound like it will be a good solution. There will ALWAYS be a nagging doubt in the back of your mind like "OK, when am I gonna have trouble with this setup", or "how many times am I gonna be able to take it to the redline before I hear a funny noise", or "how far from home will I be when the "fix of a lifetime" BREAKS"! If it DOES break, I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to stop by your local Chevy dealer to get it repaired! It will most likely have to go back to Chris to be repaired. Wanna take a guess on the cost to flatbed the C5Z from ,oh.....lets say Orlando (or farther).....to Blountstown? Even if it doesn't break, the thoughts will always be there because, in YOUR mind, the job was not done correctly. In the end, I guess that you're the only one that can YEA or NAY the fix, and you're the only one that will have to live with it. I'm not going to take one side or the other, but I might ask some other people in the head building business if they thought that this fix was acceptable and get some professional opinions. I'm sure that some of the tuners on this site would be happy to provide you with the names of some other reputable head builders that you could take your questions to. I'm sorry for all the trouble that you've had to go thru with this project, and man do I hope that it turns out OK when it's done.
Andy.
 
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