• Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.

C5 427 forged motor?

Rich Z said:
I guess it did sound like that when I wrote it. I wish.....

But no, that's not the way it will be handled. I think the option is for them to refund the money to me, and I can then choose to have them build the new engine, or I can just give them the go ahead and pay the difference.

I'm sure Chris will be checking prices on the RHS block and the heads, once we know the manufacture, so see what the price difference will be. Of course, I'm sure LME gets a better price break on stuff like that then we could. But still, as long as it's not a lot more expensive and the time frame isn't excrutiating, I will likely go this route. Heck, I've come this far. It would be a shame to spend all that time on this rocky road and then have nothing to show for it when I hit the pavement.
Click to expand...

I'm killing two birds with one stone.

Thanks for the reply Chris. I know this must have had an impact on you financially also and I hope you get whatever you're do also.

Rich, did LME see those heads before you and Chris got them? If they did I would take the money and run. Did they explain what caused the cracks? I have never looked into a 427 but I'm sure Chris must have some ideas. I don't know what your criteria is either concerning the engine but it's pretty simple to get 427 CI boring and stroking a different engine. If it were me I would start with a GM block and go from there. Piece by piece.
 
The fastest C6Z06 on the big forums is using a built stock block 427 from RPM, with a YSI blower and running 8.8 @154mph .

Hell one APS TT guy is dumping 1046rwhp/1023rwt @ 15psi out of a LSx iron block.
 
LS2POWA said:
The fastest C6Z06 on the big forums is using a built stock block 427 from RPM, with a YSI blower and running 8.8 @154mph .

Hell one APS TT guy is dumping 1046rwhp/1023rwt @ 15psi out of a LSx iron block.
Click to expand...

Well, since GM was apparently afraid to use the LS7 block for the base of their LS9 motor, I felt that was a telling point about their thoughts on it's strength in FI applications.

As for the LSX, man, I didn't want a HEAVY iron block up front in my car. I like the way the car handles, and didn't want to upset that by putting a lot of extra weight on the front end.

There were a lot more factors considered in this then simply the quarter mile stats... :)
 
Rich Z said:
I really didn't set a target number. I just knew I wanted a 427, with all forged components so I could let the turbos wind out to their full potential. Of course I wanted more power for my money, but seriously, do you think I will be able to tell the difference between 700 and 900 rwhp? Might burn the rear tires down to the rims quicker, but that's about it. I will be interested to KNOW how much power it is producing, of course, but realistically, I don't really care what that number is as long as it is a noticeable, seat of the pants, improvement over what I already have.

No, I don't know why I am doing this either..... :shrug01: Just my last hurrah going into retirement, I suppose...
Click to expand...

Yeah, something about the 427 and us old guys, it brings back memories,
large amounts of TQ:crazy03:
I love mine, it's N/A and it is a blast to drive :reddevil:
 
Rich Z said:
Well, since GM was apparently afraid to use the LS7 block for the base of their LS9 motor, I felt that was a telling point about their thoughts on it's strength in FI applications.

As for the LSX, man, I didn't want a HEAVY iron block up front in my car. I like the way the car handles, and didn't want to upset that by putting a lot of extra weight on the front end.

There were a lot more factors considered in this then simply the quarter mile stats... :)
Click to expand...

The GM Ls7 is not a strong base to build a FI or Nitrous, the new Ls9 or Ls3
have a strong and better casting.
I bought a Sleeved Ls2 427 stroker short block from Katech, I have dynoed over 640rwhp/625fttq, and settled with a very conservative tune under 600
rwtq. the truth be told with 305 18 MT Dr's it's hard to drive hard.:hehehe:
A well built Ls3 427 forged motor will be more than the street can handle, and with turbos on top of that, will put your hair on end:yesnod:
 
pmj341 said:
Yeah, something about the 427 and us old guys, it brings back memories,
large amounts of TQ:crazy03:
I love mine, it's N/A and it is a blast to drive :reddevil:
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, I had a 427 in a 1978 Camaro once. Well, it started out as a 427, but it ended up with a 454 crank in it. It was a blast to drive though. It looked like a stock Z28 with the 350, but it destroyed Mustang 5.0's! The small blocks(Chevy and Ford) might get me off the line, but it ran 'em down after it got some traction.
 
Rich Z said:
No, I don't know why I am doing this either..... :shrug01: Just my last hurrah going into retirement, I suppose...
Click to expand...
Face it Rich........I know why you're doing it. The answer is simple. YOU'RE AN
ANIMAL LOVER. If it isn't reptiles, it's horses, and you are looking to have a lot of them under the hood! :lmao::lmao:
Andy :wavey:
 
Hey Rich

Rich Z said:
Well, since GM was apparently afraid to use the LS7 block for the base of their LS9 motor, I felt that was a telling point about their thoughts on it's strength in FI applications.

As for the LSX, man, I didn't want a HEAVY iron block up front in my car. I like the way the car handles, and didn't want to upset that by putting a lot of extra weight on the front end.

There were a lot more factors considered in this then simply the quarter mile stats... :)
Click to expand...

Wanted you to know I've followed your venture from the start, some very high moments and for sure some pretty low and you've been a CHAMP throughout the ordeal.
I had to go and check the number's on my Mallett which as you know is a 427 575 HP LS2 punched out I believe. Most of all curious to the heads stamp.
X2314R. X=427 block heads 2314 serail number of my car, R race prepaired.
Chuck Mallett built. 575 is nothing horsepower anymore. Neither is 510 tq.
It's still plenty of kick in the pants though for me.
I don't know Extreme except what I read and all is good.
I'm not sure but I believe that BoLaws here in Orlando has and builds 427's.
They have for years held many top NHRA titles, as well as NASCAR , and IMSA road racing titles as far as engines are concerned. Bo's 67 vette broke the Gator National record 4 times in one day. His reputation is the best in most all of motorsport's, and Hall of Fame inductee as well.
My Spice GTP engine is a 383 850 hp pro built LaZano Brothers built, and again reputation on the pro circuit for years with IMSA.
Just throwing all this out there in case you continue to search for some of the best performance BB engine's.
Chuch Mallett has gone belly up, so all us owner's are now screwed as far as value with our corvettes.
 
spiceman said:
Wanted you to know I've followed your venture from the start, some very high moments and for sure some pretty low and you've been a CHAMP throughout the ordeal.
I had to go and check the number's on my Mallett which as you know is a 427 575 HP LS2 punched out I believe. Most of all curious to the heads stamp.
X2314R. X=427 block heads 2314 serail number of my car, R race prepaired.
Chuck Mallett built. 575 is nothing horsepower anymore. Neither is 510 tq.
It's still plenty of kick in the pants though for me.
I don't know Extreme except what I read and all is good.
I'm not sure but I believe that BoLaws here in Orlando has and builds 427's.
They have for years held many top NHRA titles, as well as NASCAR , and IMSA road racing titles as far as engines are concerned. Bo's 67 vette broke the Gator National record 4 times in one day. His reputation is the best in most all of motorsport's, and Hall of Fame inductee as well.
My Spice GTP engine is a 383 850 hp pro built LaZano Brothers built, and again reputation on the pro circuit for years with IMSA.
Just throwing all this out there in case you continue to search for some of the best performance BB engine's.
Chuch Mallett has gone belly up, so all us owner's are now screwed as far as value with our corvettes.
Click to expand...

Nice going! Here I am drag racing a stock C5 and poor little you has to run around with a lowly 575 HP. :wavey: I cannot even imagine having that kind of power in my car. :lmao:
 
Rich Z said:
As for the LSX, man, I didn't want a HEAVY iron block up front in my car. I like the way the car handles, and didn't want to upset that by putting a lot of extra weight on the front end.
Click to expand...

This was just going around on the corvetteforum racing section and one of the guys mentioned it's only a 70lb gain. That's not bad for the power you are putting down and the reliability you'd get. I'd think it would be double that though. Good luck.
 
shakedown067 said:
This was just going around on the corvetteforum racing section and one of the guys mentioned it's only a 70lb gain. That's not bad for the power you are putting down and the reliability you'd get. I'd think it would be double that though. Good luck.
Click to expand...
You can use the LSx block and move the Battery to the back and add 30lbs of junk in the back to make up for the difference.
With all the extra power you wouldn't even notice it
 
shakedown067 said:
Good point...that is if it's really only a 70lb difference.
Click to expand...

One of the things that makes the LSX so tough is the sheer amount of cast iron that goes into it, causing the standard deck version to weigh in at a full 225 lbs. With the weight of your average LS1 or LS2 aluminum block being about half this--and a production iron block falling somewhere in between--
Click to expand...

I went through all this before when I was considering this build.

One of the reasons I went with the STS turbos was because I didn't want all the weight of competing products on the front end of the car. One of the most impressive attributes of the Corvette is the way it handles. I didn't want to screw that up.
 
What kind of power goals are you wanting from the 427/TT combo?

If youre not shooting for 1/4 stuff, anything in excess of 600 would just be brutal for auto-x, hell even 450-500 would be enough...and I know we all covered the no top speed stuff haha.

The 427 block from GM with forged internals should more then enough suit your needs for power/fun. The only problem Ive read was the dry sump setup was causing some cars to "starve"...but Im pretty sure thats been fixed.

Youd be surprised on the weight of your car already if you havent weighed it.

Mine was weighed on Jan 3rd this year at 2979 with a full tank of gas. The guy said a 3# weight under the passenger seat would give the car a perfect balance (the 3# on the drivers side is from my harness belt setup). Factory curb weight listed from GM on the 3LT C6 with auto is 31XX. Ive put a blower, bigger wheels and bigger brakes...and yet I weighed in almost 200lbs less then claimed from GM.

Can always call Katech too lol, they built the 8.2L 500ci motor for the Pratt and Miller C6RS. 600/600 all motor. Just imagine those twins of yours mounted to those. :rofl1:
 
When I found that crack in the head near the exhaust valve guide, I sent those pics to Billy Mitchell Jr. or World Products.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Z
To: Bill Mitchell jr
Cc: Chris Harwood
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:31 PM
Subject: Fw: Aw hell....


Billy,

Well, after that problem with the intake manifold bolt holes on those heads, do you think perhaps this latest problem is trying to tell me something about World Products? Seriously, what do you think my confidence level in your product is like at this moment?

Rich Z.
Click to expand...

Here is his reply...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Mitchell jr" <bmjr@theengineshop.com>
To: "Rich Z" <rich@corvetteflorida.com>; "sales" <sales@latemodelengines.com>; <chris.harwood@motorsportsxtreme.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Aw hell....


> Rich,
> I have to be honest with you. I am stumped. These you have obviously
> picked apart everything on the engine, no doubt but these heads came
> back for the manifold bolt hole location correction. Now I would have
> been more then happy to swap them out with a whole other set but the
> decision was made (Not by I) to correct these due to the fair amount of
> machining done to them for the Jesel rocker arms and some pocket work.
> So they came back, we dropped what we were doing and jumped on this deal
> to get you back up and going on your project at obviously no cost. After
> this was all done you went and once again picked apart the repair, took
> high resolution photos that gave you a view like it was under a
> microscope and magnified the corrected holes did not in anyway look this
> way to the human eye and was a very acceptable repair. Needless to say
> it was all posted on the forum for all of the world to see and crucify
> us. You even made sure that you forwarded me the link to see this. There
> were a few that did know what they were looking at and understand the
> whole situation and saw this for what it was and I thank them for
> jumping in.
> In reality, our entire industry that we all rely on to bring us the
> thousand of incredible products for all of our hot rods, race cars,
> boats etc. there is no such thing as a company that produces 100% of the
> products perfect 100% of the time. Parts do once in awhile get past the
> quality checks and yeah it sucks but we're not just knowingly sending
> these parts out and keeping our fingers crossed. I don't care what
> manufacturer including the god almighty precious GM have these issues
> that get out. It is truly the way that a company handles the situation
> at hand that I believe is what should be criticized if need be but this
> does not happen. You guys get on the forum and just start ripping away,
> sometimes even before you guys give the manufacturer even a chance to
> respond to or correct the problem. So let me ask you this, after you the
> fact that you already ripped into us as well as all of your buddies, and
> after the fact we dropped what we were doing and even had some guys come
> in during their Christmas vacation and and handled the situation at hand
> based on a decision that was made collectively, Why would you expect us
> to do anything, The damage you have done is un-fixable and no matter
> what I do from this point on would not mean squat to no one and wouldn't
> make you happy anyway and wouldn't be the last, the shade of aluminum
> would be wrong.
> But you know what, we are not a company that does not stand behind
> our parts. If the head is cracked which it looks like it is then we all
> missed it. Send the heads back and I will get a set of new ones done for
> you, simple as that. There is nothing else on the table here, No hidden
> catches, No conditions, No further offers just ship the heads back to
> me, I'll send you new ones. When shipping them back make sure to send
> them freight prepaid with the RMA #BMJR on the outside of the pkgs or
> the the receiving dock will refuse them.
> Bill
Click to expand...

I am glad that I will not be advertising World Products whenever someone looks under my hood.
 
Back in the old days when I did some quality control work about 7% of products were rejected in the casting industry. I have no idea what it is today. These were minor imperfections that were caught during inspection.

You had 3 major problems. Wrong hole locations, extremely bad threads on the repair and then cracks. I have the experience to back up my statement. There is absolutely no excuse. If he is implying those threads were OK that is crazy. That's got to be the worse machining job I have ever seen. In my opinion you should never have been given the option to repair those heads. They should have said to ship them back and replaced them with new from the get go.

You sent him the link to this thread. :thumbsup: He's had the option to join and rebut the negative posts but he knew he didn't have a leg to stand on. You have not damaged their reputation. They did that all by themselves. Poor manufacturing and no quality control.

While he's right you could have had a problem if they were from GM they would not have repaired these heads. With their deepest apologies they would have replaced them immediately and also given you a deep discount for your problems.

Let us know what you decide to do now Rich. There are so many options out there especially with the amount of money you're willing to spend. My honest opinion is that you'll never notice a difference if it were an iron block under the hood. However that thought apparently bothers you greatly so it's not an option.
 
Wow, not only was half of that undecipherable but it was relatively rude.

Was he literally trying to criticize you for thoroughly investigating your motor? Really?

What is your plan? Get new Warhawk heads or fight them for a full refund? After their behavior I can't say I would truly want their heads, but still, seems to be the easiest option.

Is your LS6 back in? I haven't been able to get ahold of Chris...
 
Rich .......... Hip Hip

Rich Z said:
When I found that crack in the head near the exhaust valve guide, I sent those pics to Billy Mitchell Jr. or World Products.



Here is his reply...



I am glad that I will not be advertising World Products whenever someone looks under my hood.
Click to expand...

Man I believe I've just read it all when it comes to excuses and trying to shift the blame. Also believe some attorney critque work was incorporated herein as well.:mad::toetap05:

Ya know Rich, if you don't have jake decals on your vette, get some. Take no prisoner's in this pis... poor excuse's of Mitchell Jr, brother. Far too many other GREAT Engine builder's that have done this swap in C-5's with their eyes closed, and had fantastic results for everyone involved.
I really do feel bad for you Rich, and can guarantee you all of your collegues
of corvette buddies herein back you up 110%.:yesnod:
John
 
World Products has a very good reputation. I found his reply to be quite candid and honest. They obviously stand behind their products and are willing to help you out. Sounds like a company that most people would want to deal with.
 
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