Yeah, it's been holding together for three years now, so I guess I can hold out till it either blows up or gets completely unbearable.
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Got the Contributing Memberships stuff finally worked out and made up a thread as a sort of "How-To" to help people figure out how to participate. So if you need help figuring it out, here's the thread you need to take a look at -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3581 Thank you, everyone! Rich Z.
427 engine (part 2) - RHS block
- Thread starter Rich Z
- Start date
Yeah, it's been holding together for three years now, so I guess I can hold out till it either blows up or gets completely unbearable.
In the meantime, I am doing some research on possibly replacing the LG Motorsports headers when it comes time to replace that Centerforce clutch. Of course, I am looking at what replacement clutch looks the best for me to get.
And while doing this research on headers, I noticed something.
Notice the difference in these two pics? One is of my C5Z and the other is a pic that Robert took of a header install he did recently.
Apparently not only did someone neglect to put the bracket back onto the bell housing that the headers bolt to for support, the attachment point on the passenger side header was cut off completely.
Another job well done by the butchers of Blountstown and Thomasville, apparently.
And while doing this research on headers, I noticed something.
Notice the difference in these two pics? One is of my C5Z and the other is a pic that Robert took of a header install he did recently.
Apparently not only did someone neglect to put the bracket back onto the bell housing that the headers bolt to for support, the attachment point on the passenger side header was cut off completely.
Another job well done by the butchers of Blountstown and Thomasville, apparently.
BTW, those black headers are from Hinson Motorsports (http://www.hinsonsupercars.com/p-86...tainless-headers-ceramic-coated-w-x-pipe.aspx).
The thing that looks attractive to me about them is that it looks like I could take off the bell housing without having to loosen up the headers if I need to do any further work with the clutch in the future. At the very least, the tunnel plate and torque tube could come down without touching the headers, and possibly the lower portion of the bell housing as well. Plus they are 1 7/8 inch primaries on those headers, whereas the LGM Pros I have are 1 3/4 inches, if I remember correctly.
Not only are the LGM headers smaller in diameter, but the welding job done at the flanges leaves a LOT to be desired, as the welds make the headers even more restrictive at that point.
So yeah, while I am at it, putting on a new set of headers would probably be wise to do, I think.
The thing that looks attractive to me about them is that it looks like I could take off the bell housing without having to loosen up the headers if I need to do any further work with the clutch in the future. At the very least, the tunnel plate and torque tube could come down without touching the headers, and possibly the lower portion of the bell housing as well. Plus they are 1 7/8 inch primaries on those headers, whereas the LGM Pros I have are 1 3/4 inches, if I remember correctly.
Not only are the LGM headers smaller in diameter, but the welding job done at the flanges leaves a LOT to be desired, as the welds make the headers even more restrictive at that point.
So yeah, while I am at it, putting on a new set of headers would probably be wise to do, I think.
Finally got around to taking the C5Z out for a drive today. Delay was because of two things: (1) battery on my cell phone had died and I was reluctant to take the car out without being able to call in if it died on me on the road, and (2) came down with a cold and am only now feeling half human again.
I set up a GoPro with a remote microphone down on the floor next to the closest point to where the clutch is located. Drove it for 37 miles and I didn't hear a thing myself while driving. Nada. No squealing, no strange noises at all. However when I process the video/audio, there is a very faint squeal being picked up when I pulled away from the garage, and then when pulling out of the driveway onto the roadway. Both were from a dead stop.
Heck, I don't know. Maybe there is sand getting in between the clutch disk and either the pressure plate and/or the flywheel. Maybe I've just been babying the clutch too much and it's not properly broken in. Maybe my clutch technique just needs some work. I do tend to slip the clutch quite a bit by slowly releasing the clutch pedal. Maybe I need to be quicker and more abrupt with the foot action.... :shrug01:
If it would stay like this I wouldn't see any sense to pulling out the drivetrain at all. Of course, I just ordered a transmission jack, but I'm guessing that sooner or later I'm going to be needing it. But honestly, the way my lower back has been feeling the last couple of days, the idea of doing this job doesn't thrill me in the least. I can see that I am going to be struggling just to put together that transmission jack when it comes in.
Anyway, beats the hell out of me.
I set up a GoPro with a remote microphone down on the floor next to the closest point to where the clutch is located. Drove it for 37 miles and I didn't hear a thing myself while driving. Nada. No squealing, no strange noises at all. However when I process the video/audio, there is a very faint squeal being picked up when I pulled away from the garage, and then when pulling out of the driveway onto the roadway. Both were from a dead stop.
Heck, I don't know. Maybe there is sand getting in between the clutch disk and either the pressure plate and/or the flywheel. Maybe I've just been babying the clutch too much and it's not properly broken in. Maybe my clutch technique just needs some work. I do tend to slip the clutch quite a bit by slowly releasing the clutch pedal. Maybe I need to be quicker and more abrupt with the foot action.... :shrug01:
If it would stay like this I wouldn't see any sense to pulling out the drivetrain at all. Of course, I just ordered a transmission jack, but I'm guessing that sooner or later I'm going to be needing it. But honestly, the way my lower back has been feeling the last couple of days, the idea of doing this job doesn't thrill me in the least. I can see that I am going to be struggling just to put together that transmission jack when it comes in.
Anyway, beats the hell out of me.
Yes, it is annoying. And disconcerting. I can't redevelop any trust in the car, thinking that someday something will break, leaving me stranded somewhere, and the noise will have been a warning I should have heeded. Kind of a premonition of hindsight sort of thing.
Still digging around, learning more about clutch options. Found this thread particularly interesting..... http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-tech/2856374-rps-twin-disc-clutch-owners.html
This article had some enlightening info in it as well..... http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/1309-corvette-c5-c6-clutch-systems-everything-you-need-to-know/
This article had some enlightening info in it as well..... http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/1309-corvette-c5-c6-clutch-systems-everything-you-need-to-know/
Got the exhaust bracket in today. Not sure I'll install it until I do the clutch replacement. And that will depend on how frequently I hear the Centerforce one squealing. Been raining off and on for a while now, so haven't had the car out to see how it goes.
Doesn't look like it's used, but apparently rattled around in a parts drawer for a while.
Doesn't look like it's used, but apparently rattled around in a parts drawer for a while.
It's been a while! I saw your post over on the Hinson header thread on CF. I had been eye'ing a set for mine but I think I'm going to just stick with C6 Z06 manifolds/cats/axle back and maybe remove the cats (I have another sets that have been gutted) for any racing events. They flow well and the cats work great.. and from the H pipe back is full 3". And they were fairly cheap.
Any new developments on the car? I haven't read all of the most recent posts, looks like you were having a clutch noise though? When was it happening? I've been through 3 clutches so I've learned more than I would have liked.. I ended up with a Monster LT1-S (uses a C7 pressure plate/friction disc with a custom flywheel to make it fit on LS1/2/3/7 engines). Works great, feels stock.
Anyways, just thought I'd stop by and see how things were going.
Any new developments on the car? I haven't read all of the most recent posts, looks like you were having a clutch noise though? When was it happening? I've been through 3 clutches so I've learned more than I would have liked.. I ended up with a Monster LT1-S (uses a C7 pressure plate/friction disc with a custom flywheel to make it fit on LS1/2/3/7 engines). Works great, feels stock.
Anyways, just thought I'd stop by and see how things were going.
I actually ordered a set of motor mounts from Hinson, but when I saw the invoice fine print claiming that that do not warranty ANY of their products and claiming that I admit to illegally a car with their parts installed on it, I told them to take a hike. Hope I don't have to eat my words if it turns out that I actually need their shorter motor mounts..... :shrug01:
Actually have the exhaust off of the car right now and planning to pull the headers off tomorrow. I am replacing the starter. Apparently the C5 starters have a substantial potential problem with one of the two mounting flanges being weaker than the other. If the weaker flange were to let go, the resulting stresses on the remaining bolt tends to break off the mounting section of the block.
Then you have BIG problems. So better to play it safe and put a better starter in.
Also have to replace those Pfadt urethane motor mounts since the one on the driver side failed. Looks like the urethane insulator just broke, so there is likely metal to metal contact. Perhaps this is even contributing to that drive train noise I hear. Probably not, but that sure would be nice if replacing the motor mounts makes the noise go away.
When pulling the spark plug wires off, the terminal in the wire on one of the plugs came out. Doesn't look very easy to repair, so I ordered a new set. I did have some older Granatelli wires in the storage cabinet, but after thinking about the possible abuse they might have taken at the hands to the Harwood/Scott team, I decided to just go ahead and order a new set.
Also found some interesting info concerning spark plugs that I will expand upon later that leads me to believe that replacing the NGK TR6 spark plugs with iridium ACDelcos might be a real wise idea. So got them on order too.
Actually depends on how easy those LG Motorsports headers come out as to whether I will buy new headers or not. The new version of Kooks headers are supposed to be very easy in and out. So we will see...
Actually have the exhaust off of the car right now and planning to pull the headers off tomorrow. I am replacing the starter. Apparently the C5 starters have a substantial potential problem with one of the two mounting flanges being weaker than the other. If the weaker flange were to let go, the resulting stresses on the remaining bolt tends to break off the mounting section of the block.
Then you have BIG problems. So better to play it safe and put a better starter in.Also have to replace those Pfadt urethane motor mounts since the one on the driver side failed. Looks like the urethane insulator just broke, so there is likely metal to metal contact. Perhaps this is even contributing to that drive train noise I hear. Probably not, but that sure would be nice if replacing the motor mounts makes the noise go away.
When pulling the spark plug wires off, the terminal in the wire on one of the plugs came out. Doesn't look very easy to repair, so I ordered a new set. I did have some older Granatelli wires in the storage cabinet, but after thinking about the possible abuse they might have taken at the hands to the Harwood/Scott team, I decided to just go ahead and order a new set.
Also found some interesting info concerning spark plugs that I will expand upon later that leads me to believe that replacing the NGK TR6 spark plugs with iridium ACDelcos might be a real wise idea. So got them on order too.
Actually depends on how easy those LG Motorsports headers come out as to whether I will buy new headers or not. The new version of Kooks headers are supposed to be very easy in and out. So we will see...
Well, today didn't go as well as I had hoped working on the car. The passenger side header came out without too much trouble. And I was able to get the starter out. Had to turn it around to get to the cables, though.
But the driver's side is really fighting me HARD. And I found out that the insulating wrap I put on the headers wants to just disintegrate and fall apart on me. Hope I didn't breath in too much of that stuff before deciding to put on a face mask. Already had goggles on, since I was figuring on getting sand falling out of nooks and crannies. So after tugging and twisting on the that driver's side header for a while, I decided it was time to just walk away from it for a bit....
So that's where it is now. I may have to re-evaluate how badly I want to replace that broken Pfadt motor mount on that side. I think I will be able to get the one on the passenger side replaced (knock on wood) and surely get the new starter in there. But that driver's side might be beyond my patience level. No sure I want to have to do major surgery just to get that header out of there.
Damn, my arms itch like crazy from that disintegrating insulation. Yeah, I hope I didn't breath much of it......... :ack2: I removed nearly all of the insulation from that driver side header so I could see better what it was hanging up on, and I did have the face mask on at that time. But I guess I should have worn a long sleeved shirt too.
Oh yeah, when I was pulling the exhaust pipes off of the headers, I was a bit worried about dropping the pipes as I tugged and wiggled the back end of them to get them off of the headers. So I came up with a solution to support the pipes.....
Yeah, certainly an overkill use for a transmission jack, but it was just sitting there.............
When the pipes were out, I noticed what looked like a burn mark on the underside of the tunnel plate...
Yeah, looks like I didn't have the clamp on right to cover that hole in the flange.....
THAT should be an easy enough fix when I put it all back together.
But the driver's side is really fighting me HARD. And I found out that the insulating wrap I put on the headers wants to just disintegrate and fall apart on me. Hope I didn't breath in too much of that stuff before deciding to put on a face mask. Already had goggles on, since I was figuring on getting sand falling out of nooks and crannies. So after tugging and twisting on the that driver's side header for a while, I decided it was time to just walk away from it for a bit....
So that's where it is now. I may have to re-evaluate how badly I want to replace that broken Pfadt motor mount on that side. I think I will be able to get the one on the passenger side replaced (knock on wood) and surely get the new starter in there. But that driver's side might be beyond my patience level. No sure I want to have to do major surgery just to get that header out of there.
Damn, my arms itch like crazy from that disintegrating insulation. Yeah, I hope I didn't breath much of it......... :ack2: I removed nearly all of the insulation from that driver side header so I could see better what it was hanging up on, and I did have the face mask on at that time. But I guess I should have worn a long sleeved shirt too.
Oh yeah, when I was pulling the exhaust pipes off of the headers, I was a bit worried about dropping the pipes as I tugged and wiggled the back end of them to get them off of the headers. So I came up with a solution to support the pipes.....
Yeah, certainly an overkill use for a transmission jack, but it was just sitting there.............
When the pipes were out, I noticed what looked like a burn mark on the underside of the tunnel plate...
Yeah, looks like I didn't have the clamp on right to cover that hole in the flange.....
THAT should be an easy enough fix when I put it all back together.
85vette
Active member
Where are you getting your starter from Rich? I ordered a "new" one from Dale Junior but they really don't have new ones, just remans.
Also, if you are thinking of putting Kooks headers on you may want to hold off on the new plug wires until you get the new headers on. I've been reading where you may need a little more length on the wires if you use Kooks. Guys on the CTS V Owners site have used both Stainless Works and Kooks and report both excellent headers, but the Kooks have a bit more girth. I was recommended Stainless Works as they are direct fit also.
You might need to use the transmission jack under the engine and lift it a bit. That's how I had to get my starter and motor mount out. May give you a little clearance on that header too.
Also, if you are thinking of putting Kooks headers on you may want to hold off on the new plug wires until you get the new headers on. I've been reading where you may need a little more length on the wires if you use Kooks. Guys on the CTS V Owners site have used both Stainless Works and Kooks and report both excellent headers, but the Kooks have a bit more girth. I was recommended Stainless Works as they are direct fit also.
You might need to use the transmission jack under the engine and lift it a bit. That's how I had to get my starter and motor mount out. May give you a little clearance on that header too.
I ordered the starter from Summit Racing. It's a PowerMaster brand.
Already got the new plug wires. Showed up today. Sure can't beat Summit Racing for quick shipping... :thumbsup: But if I do need to return them, Summit is real good about that sort of thing.
That sounds weird to me that a brand of headers might affect the spark plug wire choice. The coils are right over the spark plugs and it's a direct shot for the wires. So unless the headers actually obstruct the spark plugs, which would be a royal pain in the butt anyway, I'm having trouble seeing how they could affect the length of the spark plug wires.
Speaking of Kooks, I heard that they had redesigned their headers to make them far easier to install. Some of my problem might be the other mods that were done. It may be a matter of figuring out just what is in the way, and figure out a way to move it OUT of the way.
I'm already planning on jacking up the engine a slight bit so I can loosen the motor mount brackets on the engine block to try to slide the mount and bracket out. I've read where people said this will work, but man, I dunno.. Those studs on the motor mounts are pretty darn long. Why someone didn't design them to have screw in bolts instead of those attached studs is beyond me. Would have made motor mount replacements a heck of a lot easier to do. Anyway, I have to be careful jacking the engine up because that FAST intake manifold is already REALLY close to the overhang in the back of the engine compartment. Anything more than about a quarter of an inch will mean that the intake manifold will need to come out too.
I contacted LGM about getting that header out, and was told by Anthony that I have to just point the header straight down and then rotate the bottom towards the passenger side wheel well. I did try that, as it is in their install instructions, but darn if I could get that to work. I might need to have Connie up on top looking into the engine compartment while I work underneath so she can see what might be getting in the way. I sure as heck don't want to break some wires just yanking and twisting that header.
Thing is, once I get that header out, I might be REAL reluctant to put it back in. Hence my thinking about Kooks replacements. But it might take a few weeks to get them ordered and ceramic coated too. Oh well, it's not like my car hasn't already spent a lot of time sitting up on the lift.
Already got the new plug wires. Showed up today. Sure can't beat Summit Racing for quick shipping... :thumbsup: But if I do need to return them, Summit is real good about that sort of thing.
That sounds weird to me that a brand of headers might affect the spark plug wire choice. The coils are right over the spark plugs and it's a direct shot for the wires. So unless the headers actually obstruct the spark plugs, which would be a royal pain in the butt anyway, I'm having trouble seeing how they could affect the length of the spark plug wires.
Speaking of Kooks, I heard that they had redesigned their headers to make them far easier to install. Some of my problem might be the other mods that were done. It may be a matter of figuring out just what is in the way, and figure out a way to move it OUT of the way.
I'm already planning on jacking up the engine a slight bit so I can loosen the motor mount brackets on the engine block to try to slide the mount and bracket out. I've read where people said this will work, but man, I dunno.. Those studs on the motor mounts are pretty darn long. Why someone didn't design them to have screw in bolts instead of those attached studs is beyond me. Would have made motor mount replacements a heck of a lot easier to do. Anyway, I have to be careful jacking the engine up because that FAST intake manifold is already REALLY close to the overhang in the back of the engine compartment. Anything more than about a quarter of an inch will mean that the intake manifold will need to come out too.
I contacted LGM about getting that header out, and was told by Anthony that I have to just point the header straight down and then rotate the bottom towards the passenger side wheel well. I did try that, as it is in their install instructions, but darn if I could get that to work. I might need to have Connie up on top looking into the engine compartment while I work underneath so she can see what might be getting in the way. I sure as heck don't want to break some wires just yanking and twisting that header.
Thing is, once I get that header out, I might be REAL reluctant to put it back in. Hence my thinking about Kooks replacements. But it might take a few weeks to get them ordered and ceramic coated too. Oh well, it's not like my car hasn't already spent a lot of time sitting up on the lift.
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You know, I've been thinking about this and I think I have gotten too focused on getting that header out, when the real reason I want to remove it is so that I can get the motor mount OUT of there. From what I have read, the easiest way to remove the motor mount is to lift the engine slightly, then remove both the motor mount and the motor mount bracket that attaches to the side of the block. So if I can just MOVE the header out of the way enough, I might not have to get it OUT completely in order to do what I really need done.
But the first thing I want to do is to try that motor mount removal technique on the passenger side just to make sure it actually works as well as I have read.
Of course, that is presuming I can lift the engine high enough to take the weight off of the motor mounts without impacting that FAST intake manifold. I may have to try to drop the cradle as much as I can too. And, of course, there is a wrinkle there too, as the pipes from the STS turbos run directly under the front cradle, and there really isn't much distance between the two to lower the cradle very much. But maybe with a combo of the two, it will be just enough.
Didn't do anything on the car today. Wanted to just take some time and think things through as much as possible before actually doing anything. Plus it was a gorgeous day and I just didn't feel like being stuck in the garage anyway.
85vette
Active member
I'm not getting anything displayed when I click on that link..... :shrug01:
Anyway, I got the passenger side motor mount installed today. I loosened the bolts on the front subframe to lower that a little bit so I wouldn't have to jack the engine up as much. I loosened the nuts on the motor mount bolts and just jacked up the engine using one of my OTC underhoist stands until the motor mount loosened up. That way I knew the weight was off of it.
However, there is a snag. Those motor mounts I bought a slightly taller than the Pfadts. When I put in the motor mount I just could not get the motor mount bracket bolts to thread in, and wound up having to raise the engine with another couple of turns. I have the passenger side mount in, but I'm not real comfortable about the extra height. That FAST intake manifold was already REAL close to the back lip of the firewall, so every 1/8th inch counts. I discovered that Summit sells the Hinson 3/8ths inch shorter motor mounts so I am going to just bite the bitter bullet and buy them. I really don't want to use these taller mounts, put it all back together, then find out that the intake manifold it pressing against that back firewall lip.
Anyway, the method of removing the motor mount bracket on the side of the engine block along with the motor mount seems to work very well. At least with this passenger side with the header removed. From underneath, you can remove the bolts and just pull the bracket and mount right out where the headers were. Easy.
Hopefully it won't be much of a struggle with the driver's side. But it is certainly not going to be as easy, since the motor mount and bracket will have to come out from the top. Assuming I can get that header out of the way enough to work in there. So that means I need to raise the engine a bit while I have the car low enough so I can lean over the fender to get down to the motor mount. Looks like it's going to be a back breaker for sure. And they don't give you much play in those holes in the motor mount bracket for much room for error lining them up with the threaded holes in the block. I sure as heck don't want the cross thread those bolts, so that will probably be a headache getting them lined up correctly.
"Never give up, never surrender" I guess....
Oh, btw, those STS turbo pipes are actually mounted on the bolts that hold the subframe up to the frame, so loosening the nuts lowers those pipes as well. I just had to loosen up the plastic panels in back of the front wheel wells so I could give them some room to move.
I think I may have found a solution for the problem of getting to the motor mount on the driver's side without lifting the car pretty high off of the floor.
Picked one up from Harbor Freight yesterday -> http://www.harborfreight.com/450-lb-capacity-transmission-jack-39178.html
Hopefully that will do the job for me. I will still likely have to stand on a foot stool, but that will be a whole lot better than standing on the top of a ladder to get into the engine bay. Still won't be any picnic, but at least I won't likely kill myself falling off a ladder.
And I am not going to be putting that insulation wrap on the headers again. Apparently exposure to high head makes it gradually degrade and disintegrate. The areas where the heat was the highest have become discolored and easily breaks apart when handled....
Plus that stuff is pretty nasty when it breaks up into little particles. Makes the skin itch like mad, and I'm sure breathing it will put you into a world of hurt. I just have to try to get all those particles cleaned up as best I can. I'm sure some of it is still coating the lower parts of the frame where the headers are located. I know my arms were itching again after putting in that passenger side motor mount...
Picked one up from Harbor Freight yesterday -> http://www.harborfreight.com/450-lb-capacity-transmission-jack-39178.html
Hopefully that will do the job for me. I will still likely have to stand on a foot stool, but that will be a whole lot better than standing on the top of a ladder to get into the engine bay. Still won't be any picnic, but at least I won't likely kill myself falling off a ladder.
And I am not going to be putting that insulation wrap on the headers again. Apparently exposure to high head makes it gradually degrade and disintegrate. The areas where the heat was the highest have become discolored and easily breaks apart when handled....
Plus that stuff is pretty nasty when it breaks up into little particles. Makes the skin itch like mad, and I'm sure breathing it will put you into a world of hurt. I just have to try to get all those particles cleaned up as best I can. I'm sure some of it is still coating the lower parts of the frame where the headers are located. I know my arms were itching again after putting in that passenger side motor mount...